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russian and german submachine guns

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections.

russian and german submachine guns

Postby Volklin on 04 Jun 2004 17:46

I heard that the Germans and Russians employed submachine guns in very limited numbers, what were they?
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Postby gewehrdork on 05 Jun 2004 01:59

The russians were lucky they had enough ammo for the rifles they had in the first war - and nope they did not field any SMG's in WW1.
The germans , issued out in very very small quantities Bergman MP18/I subguns , wooden stocked , a bit heavy for their 9mm caliber.They would have been quite the thing in fast paced assaults on fortifications/trenches but they were saddled wiht the P08 32 round snail drum magazine which was a tempermental feed device that often failed, and was easily damaged.
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Postby Volklin on 05 Jun 2004 07:21

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/mgun_mp18.htm

Great page about the MP18.

Also the Russians had one in 1916! The Federov Avtomat which could fire semi and full automatic, 3,000 were made.
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Postby Werewolf10 on 09 Jun 2004 13:37

Russians have semi-automatic rifles, "assault rifles" in use on the combat in the First World War, "6.5mm Avtomaticheskaya vintovka V. Federova obr. 1916g" or Federov Avtomat, a design from 1913-type rifle. The 1916-rifle was the last of a family of automatic rifles in Russia of Vladimir Federov as had proposed a recoil-operated Mosin-Nagant in 1905 and come up with the first design in 1907. Federov work with the automatic rifle-prototypes in years to 1912 then the "1912-pattern Federov" be the superior in on field trials for the automatic rifles. ( a few- Tokarev, Browning and Sjøgren ). Only 150 7.62mm "1912-type" Federov Avtomat was produced. But the 1913-type Federov Avtomat on 6.5mm was more superior and one of the best rifles in the day of this sort- the war in 1914 and the mass-production scheme stopped the production.

Avtomat in 1916 was successful with a magasin on 25 rounds and was short with only length on 97.5cm and was perhaps the First World War`s best automatic rifle, the pioneer of the russian/soviet automatic rifles for the next world war. But the work was slow, the russian administration not so good and the production was in many troubles- only a few companies had Avtomat something the 189th Ismailsky infantry regiment`s one company in october 1916. Only 200 guns was made by February 1920. Had the russians good administration for rearmament and a industry with few troubles for war economy will the Avtomat be in great numbers.

Germans had the Bergman MP18,1 submachinegun "M1918", is known of us in the days- but the MP18 was not only ONE submachinegun, that is other designs too. The storm troopers use not only MP18, but too a version of the Lange Pistol 08 something a pistol with butt on and a drum magazine with 38 rounds. LP08 was not so popular as MP18. Over 80.000 drum magazines for LP08 was made in 1916-1918. The Mauser pistol was too in the use with "big" magazines on 20 rounds- as the version 7.92mm Mauser-Selbstlade-Pistole C96 with butt and frame. MP18, LP08 and Mauser C96 was "submachineguns" for the storm troopers.

Germans as russians too wanted semi-automatic rifles and come up with a few designs in the time before and under the First World War, the first was from 1898, these was for complicated to use for the military. In the war use the germans 7.9mm Mauser Selbstlade-Gewehr Modell 15, a gun from the C06/09 prototype with 10 or 20 rounds magazines. But the rifle was no success and be replaced of Mondragon FSK15 "Flieger-Selbstladekarabiner", a gas-operated auto-lader. 3.000 was made in the Switzerland and sold to Germany after Mexico ( as ordred the design ) come in a civil war from 1911. Mauser M15 and FSK15 was not good for use on the Western Front and be only send to the German Navy. Mondragon FSK15 use 30 rounds drum magazine. A last try was the 7.9mm Mauser-Gewehr 18 as only a version of Mauser Gewehr 98, but short and with magazines on 25 rounds as a "trench carbine". MP18 submachinegun stopped all work on semi-automatic rifles.

The semi-automatic rifles was only in prototype basis in the First World War but the Avtomat was perhaps the best. MP18 was not single classic submachinegun, italians have a crazy weapon, 9mm Villar-Perosa "ultra-light machine-gun" with two barrels and two magazines, is the first of the Beretta submachineguns in the history. USA had the known .30 Browning Automatic Rifle/machine-gun, "BAR", 102.155 was made in 1919. France has too semi-automatic designs, 7mm Fusil Automatique A6 "Meunier", 8mm Mle1917 RSC rifle, Mle1918 RSC rifle- the magazine only on 5 rounds.

The war was a place of test of many innovations before the time for the new weapons and a few come to great use.
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Postby David Lehmann on 14 Jul 2004 20:55

Hello,

The French also had a semi-automatic rifle, derived from the Lebel Mle1886/93 rifle :

Fusil "automatique" Mle 1917 and Mle1918
Type : Semi-automatic rifle
Total length : 1330 mm (1850 mm with bayonet) for the 1917 and 1110 mm for the 1918
Weight (empty) : 5.27 kg (1917) or 4.77 kg (1918)
Barrel Length : 800 mm (1917) or 580 mm (1918)
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 750 m/s
Only 90000 have been produced. Also used later during the Rif war in Morocco and in France in 1940.

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Postby gewehrdork on 15 Jul 2004 04:05

Guys ; the question was regarding subguns.The Federov was little mopre than an experiment made in considerably miniscule numbers that was not reliable - even in it's postwar variants. The Frenchie seniauto rifle was as well plagued with failures and after WW1 the handfull made were converted to single shots to lessen their notable self destructive tendency when fired in semiautomatic mode.
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R.S.C. loading?

Postby CurVar on 23 Jul 2004 07:27

Can anybody say how - Fusil "Automatique" R.S.C. Mle.1917- was loaded? Where the full clip was put in and how it was taken out after shooting?
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Postby gewehrdork on 03 Aug 2004 04:36

CV ; The Mle'17 rifle was loaded like the berthier bolt rifle. That is with the bolt retracted the mannlicher clip of cartridges was inserted into rifle just as in the berthier rifles. When fired it fell out the bottom - just as often though it took loading another mannlicher clip of ammo to knock the empty clip out of the rifle's magazine. It's been some years since I have handled an Mle'17 - and they may very well have had to have the empty clip ejected by depressing the clip release button on the inside of the triggerguard as opposed to letting them fall out throught the bottom. In any event the rifle shot itself to bit all too often with the Hot loaded french issue ball ammo.
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Postby Volklin on 03 Aug 2004 23:56

This is talking about the rare submacine guns. Semi-automatics were plenty, the British army for example already had mass produced semiautos.
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Kalashnikov AK

Postby goldshy on 14 Mar 2006 01:22

hi new member
me and a few friends are having a big debate on the above assault rifle,know Kalashnikov has said that he started planning the AK in ND there was a prototype in 1942,my question is do you think that the AK was used against the German troops in the second world war maybe the defense of Russia
any help
many thanks
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Re: Kalashnikov AK

Postby Renner aus Schlesien on 14 Mar 2006 01:38

goldshy wrote:hi new member
me and a few friends are having a big debate on the above assault rifle,know Kalashnikov has said that he started planning the AK in ND there was a prototype in 1942,my question is do you think that the AK was used against the German troops in the second world war maybe the defense of Russia
any help
many thanks


Goldshy - No AK-47s were used in the Second World War. Kalashnikov was in the Army throughout the war and none were made until after the end of the war... entering service in 1947, thus the '47' in AK-47. Also, I'm not sure about a prototype in 1942.

http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/history.html

http://www.vodkakalashnikov.com/history.htm
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Postby Renner aus Schlesien on 14 Mar 2006 01:48

After posting my last comment I see elsewhere online that the AK-47 may have entered service in 1949 and is named AK-47 because the '47 model entered service. I don't know which is correct.

http://www.bobtuley.com/kalashnikov.htm

Anyway, to not get too far from the First World War and the original post...yes, the AK-47 was inspired by the First World War Russian Fedorov Automat. :D
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Postby Paul kyre on 15 Jul 2006 07:24

Volklin wrote:http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/mgun_mp18.htm

Great page about the MP18.

Also the Russians had one in 1916! The Federov Avtomat which could fire semi and full automatic, 3,000 were made.


it looks like a predecessor of the famous AK-47 assault rifle.
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Postby Tony Williams on 05 Aug 2006 02:15

Renner aus Schlesien wrote:After posting my last comment I see elsewhere online that the AK-47 may have entered service in 1949 and is named AK-47 because the '47 model entered service. I don't know which is correct.

It entered service in 1949, but the design was recommended for adoption in 1947. Two years of troop trials followed, resulting in many improvements, before it entered service.

An interesting detail - the Russians use the term AK-47 only for the prototypes used in the troop trials. They know the service gun only as the "AK", not the AK-47.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
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Re: Kalashnikov AK

Postby JTV on 17 Nov 2006 07:59

Renner aus Schlesien wrote:[ Also, I'm not sure about a prototype in 1942.


Kalashnikov designed prototype in 1942, but it was quite conventional submachinegun (simple blowback weapon as submachineguns usually are, while AK-47 is gas-action weapon with gas-piston and rotating bolt). While it had feature or two (at least selector switch is similar and located to same place) which he later used in AK-47 from technical point of view it was much closer to PPS-42 and PPS-43 than AK-47.

BTW: Kalashnikov first got to real trouble with his submachinegun prototype (he had made it without approval) before his potential was understood and the whole thing was sorted out. The particular protype was tested by the Soviets, but the design wasn't considered mature enough for further consideration. Still, they considered that the prototype showed that its designer had enough potential and original ideas that Kalashnikov (Red Army Sergeant back then) was picked for training, which later made him the very successful designer of small arms.

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