USA dismissed Switzerland as protecting power of German POWs

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Rules : I read them , Thompson ,thanks .... Some annotations are in order :

“Severed body parts insufficient in themselves to constitue a person “ . That’s unvoluntarily humoristic . It reminder me of Frankeinstein . (Frank Einstein ,the brother of Albert ?)

“Deads persons who are not only deads” ...idem ... it remembers me of the french military regulations : “ the wartime deserter will be sentenced to death and dismissed of his rank and decorations” like if the fact to be dismissed of his rank could be worse than to be sentenced to death .Well ,for some generals ,maybe ,afterall ....

I wonder how some people who are interested in war (it’s the case of all of us in this forum ,isn’it ?) could be so sissy-pussies about to see a real atrocity pic . In this case ,why don’t they go to an “Art and Deco Forum” ( Oh ,these pink curtains are delightful ! Did you embroides the little flowers yourself ?)
Of course you may be right about necro-voyeurs ....I didn’t think about it ,at first ...and it is true that some guys are really sick in their heads .But you know what ? the worst is not to see . In reality ,the worst is the smell ,the odor ,Thompson ...

“Links should be posted “.... yep . But sorry ,I just don’t know how to make a link . I am not really from the computer – generation . So I’m afraid I will keep posting the old fashioned way .By the way , I don’t know how to reproduce the part of the message of somebody else to answer what he wrotes , in those white rectangular pieces (how do you do that ? pm me .) Also I tried to post a pic in the Lounge and I didn’t found the attachment –rectangle.... I am not computer-friendly ( computers are not my friends ,neither) and the next time that I will be a dictator I will send Bill Gates to a KL .

“Mutilated persons alive or deads” ...I know some politicians who are lobotomized .Tell them not to appear on TV ,please , that’s against the rules .

Holocaust denial : translation = The political correctness is safe ,but now we can talk a bit about it . This is welcome .

Now that the rules are set up ,let’s go back on business (my next posts .)

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Answer to your last post ,Thompson :

Section III : sorry ,but I find some others evident violations by US/french forces .

article 28: Please go to the topic opened by DRG and Luca about a mass grave discovered in Italy in or near a former US POWs camp (the one of Coltano) –which I mentioned in a precedent post in this very topic - and read my answer .Here we have one of these violations . A criminal one . A proven war crime . ( Perpetred by the US 97th infantry division ...why not to open a sticky topic about allies units which committed war crimes ,like you did for the SS units ?)

article 29 : It was the case of near –skeletons german POWs in US and french camps (sources : re-“Le Monde” again .)

article 31 : “through the mediation of the agents “... Suuuuuuuuure ! where were those agents in US POWs camps ,if I may ask ? Because of the DIF/trick ,the Red Cross was denied to survey these camps ,precisely . And Bacques is proved right ,again .

Article 32 : violated by the frenchs –at last – who used POWs for demining . And Bacques is proved right ,again and again . (Now ,personally ,I don’t think this should be considered a war crime ( I mean demining for POWs ) because if the germans put the mines ,it is logical they had to remove them ..... but it’s always a violation of these rules since they do exists ...and there I think that even the Sonderbataillon Dirlewanger was – at once – more decent than the allies because I read somewhere that once they assaulted a partisan’s camp in Russia protected by a mine field .The guys of Dirlewanger used pigs and cattle to demine the field on the spot .)

4/a : The Maschke commission . How strange you mentioned it ,because Ambrose did precisely rely on the work of this commission to deny Bacques . Problem : It exists indeed many primaries sources more accurate than this work . Kurt W. Boehme ,the “reporter” of the Maschke commission denied to see the russian archives and didn’t consulted even some american official archives . So the Maschke commission is not reliable ,which may be exactly why Ambrose relied on it when he tried desperately to deny Bacques . Remember that at first Ambrose backed up Bacques .Knowing that Bacques was right in many aspects (not all ,as we will see further ) Ambrose needed a biased work to stand for .Real primaries sources would have inclined the work in favor of Bacques ,as simply . How do I know that the Maschke commission is biased , not talking about the refusal of Boehme to see other archives ? My own research and sources (witnesses ,not books - and firsthand unpublished documents I have , don’t ask me which ones ,they are for exclusivity in my book .One of them is ,of course ,the Thuet’report .) ) for my books leads me to believe that both german research you mentioned are wrong .And they are wrong ON PURPOSE . I explain . Both guys you mentioned are stygmatized as “german renegades” by Hans Schmidt in his book . This is maybe an hard word , but being a former prisonner of US forces ,Schmidt coud have an emotional reaction there . What happens ,in reality ,is that the post-war german governments were always pretty shy to publicizes these crimes .During the “reign” of socialist Willy Brandt (the one who was infiltrated by the Stasi) ,it was even forbidden to publish any picture of german civilians massacred by the russians . Before him ,Konrad Adenauer had a very pronounced pro-Western policy .It wasn’t the moment to disturb or responsabilize the good US friend . After Brandt was Helmuth Schmidt who as a “Mischlinge” (ie . half aryan / half jew) managed to get a special permit to join the german forces (he was a Leutnant in Luftwaffe’s Flak.) Obviously ,he tried to look like a victim of this bad III Reich after the war . ( He was mobilized “by force” ....by force ? he was made an officer by force ? And it is known that the Mischlingen needed a special derogation to serve in the Wehrmacht.) so he had an unclear past to forget .No need to remove the “lost victims”, who cares ? Then we have Helmuth Kohl . A real german nationalist . The guy was working at the reunification of Germany . No need to bother the old allies diplomatically ,his game was already tough . And you surely remember the scandal when he get Reagan to commemore the german fallen soldiers at the Bitburg cemetery .... And today we have a former red agitator as german chancellor . If those facts would be ackowledged ,it would be a political victory for the radical right-wing ...Something he really don’t need .

here are the reasons why the governmental german commissions are wrong ,at best .

Now let’s see those numbers : Rudiger Overman ‘s number are obvious lies . I could scan pages and pages of many books denying him and testimonies of the ones who were there ....Let’s concentrate on the numbers of the Maschke commission :

France : 25.000 deads of about 700.000 plus POWs it’s around 0.3% death toll ...a fact demostrated false by no less than “Le Monde”. Also see the death toll at the french camp of Luneville (a real starvation camp) which is enough to deny this fantasy number .

GB : That I may believe . According to my own research ,the brits were the ones who treated their POWs ( in general) according to the rules of the Geneva Convention .
(The 21.000 number of Overman is ,I think ,an intent to bear on the brits the burden of some US war crimes.)

USA : 5000 .... well ; 12.000 deads at Ebensee camp , some remains found in a mass grave near Lambach (oh ,sorry ,I forgot they were soldiers of the 30 Years War ,according to the austrian govt ...) , around 1000 deads for the camp of Aigen-Schlaegl (under the US army ) for just a period between May 8th and july 10th 1945 ONLY (testimony of Werner Barmann in Der Freiwillige of September 1997.),etc ..etc ...
By now I think it’s easy to see that the report of the Matschke commission is completely unreliable . Which is exactly why Ambrose choosed to work over it .”After all those are german numbers ,isn’t it ? “ .... Yep .

And there is also a forgotten point : in fact many more than 5 millions POWs were made . (In some places they even captured men who had been discharged from the Wehrmacht in 1943 . It happened at last in Austria and particularly to a guy who had lost both legs in the russian front .And here Bacques is really proved right .)

Let’s keep it as 5 millions : 700.000 were given to the frenchs ,150.000 given back to the russians ,etc....it’s about one million less . So we are talking about 4 millions . The US army recognized at this time 3.8 millions POWs ...well , 200.000 are lost .Already deads ? It would be a good sleight of hand ...but we don’t know about it ,so we can’t really talk . And how could we talk with all the facts if those deads POWs were “disapeared” clandestinely by US Forces the old Katyn-way ?. Some testimonies as for sources :

“German soldiers died at this stockade (Aigen-Schlaegl ,OC) and that their remains were taken away by US army trucks to an unknown destination. They were obviously buried in mass graves that to this day could not be discovered .Incidentally it is known that in the area of the open pit latrine of the stockade a number of POWs had been killed by the guards .No trace of their remains could be found either.” Werner Barmann in Der Freiwillige ,op.cit .

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

About Lambach (under the watch of the 71th US Infantry division ....again Thompson ,can we get a sticky topic about the allies units guilties of war crimes ?) :

“The POWs were not registered ,nor had they to undergo admision formalities (handy when you plan to kill some of them ...OC) There was no medical care for the POWs .Today nobody knows how many german POWs died in these couple of months at the Lambach stockade (...) The deads were collected by their comrades and then taken away to an unknown place ,often in US army ambulances .Today nobody knows where they are buried and how many were there . POWs in the separate Waffen-SS camp fared worst .In the middle of June ,there were still 11.000 POWs in the stockade .This figure is known because it seems to have been the first counting of the POWs had taken place since the end of the war .(...) Similar encampments such as Lambach could be found in the nearby area at Steyr ,Ebensee , Mauerkirchen , Wegscheid and Freistadt ." (Published in the "Eurojournal" of february 1996)

Problem : Around 40/ 30.000 POWs were at a time at Lambach ...
( How do we know ¿? Because they provened of the surrender of the troops in the area of Hofau )
30.000 – 11.000= 19.000 ...some of these were surely liberated in one way or other . And the other ones ??? Oh yes , 5.000 deads POWs in all , isn’t it Herr Boehme ?

But let’s talk about Lambach ,always ..here the testimony ( anonymous ,sorry ) of a young (by than) austrian soldier who was a POW there : “ I did not see any dead soldier,their bodies were taken away by night . There is no doubt in my mind that it was the intention of the americans to kill as many of us as possible by starvation .”

And the testimony of Hans Schmidt in his book “SS Panzergrenadier” (he was a POW at Lambach too ...) : “ first of all I would like to state that the Lambach camp was no exception .There were hundreds of similar stockades for german POWs all across Europe and the conditions in them varied very slightly . James Bacques was right when he wrotes that the wholesale starvation in the camps was pre-planned.”

And the testimony of POW Walter M. (sorry I don’t have the full name ) ,prisonner of the frenchs at Andernach : “We saw a column of tall skeletons marching toward us .They were a group of emaciated young Waffen-SS soldiers who in a mock fashion had to carry some kind of banner as if they were on parade .They were guardeds by shorts frenchmen carrying rubber truncheons .In the town all the windows were closed and nobody was allowed on the streets .Behind the column drove several trucks loaded WITH CORPSES OF DEAD POWS. “ ( my emphasis – OC)

Well , Thompson ,somehow your denial (or the one of Ambrose) is not convincing . And I think this is enough to demostrate that the numbers of the Maschke commission are not true .

Now what I do think ,personnally : First there is problems with the russians numbers . They recognizes 600.000 and they may be right .After all it seems that the russian archives were pretty seriously redacted . The high number of german POWs in the USSR may be lower than I tought originally . It may be possible that some german historians , to disguise the american crimes ,exagered the responsabilities of the russians .....now ,I think that the russian archives do not take into account the many POWs who died during the transport (on foot ,many time) .... so it may be more than 600.000 victims there .Those must be discounted of the missing 800.000 ,but how much ? Nobody knows .... Also are the dead POWs in Hungary ,Poland etc...token into account in russian archives numbers ????? maybe not . According to the Thuet report (made in base at testimonies and the archives of the international Red Cross) , 21.000 german POWs have died in polish POWs camps . So how many POWs do we discount ,from there ,of the 800.000 ???
Yougoslavia : Yes . My own sources (the Thuet report ,again ) says about 75.000 deads POWs .... Boehme mentiones 80.000 . There he maybe right . So let’s take off around 200.000 or 300.000 POWs from the 800.000 . It’s always 500.000 (and my rough estimation is a quick and dirty one ,sadely .) ... Let’s take off around 100.000 who may have been liberated ,or maybe 200.000. We have always 300.000 missing ones . I know my aproach is not very scholar ...but these 800.000 are missing .It’s a fact . So in the best of the case ,I think that the americans are responsables of the death (mainly by starvation ,other slaughtered by german –haters or shot by nervous guards) of 300.000 german POWs ...

And this is where I start to disagree with Baques ; he didn’t take into account the deads POWs in Yougoslavia ,etc .... So he exagered ( and this is exactly for that ,that I didn’t wanted to read him ,while I am working on my book ,I would have token his numbers for granted .) but he is not wrong in the fact that 800.000 are missing and murders (or forced starvation‘s cases ) happened . And at large scale .

Now ,what about his charges of pre-planned starvation ? Well, here again ,I have an half-way point of view : Yes it existed ,from the top ,a wish to see those POWs starve to death . (from Roosevelt and his “camarilla” – in english ,his clique : Harry Hopkins ,Morgenthau , Kaufmann – the one who wanted to sterilize all german males ,etc...)
They hated the nazis and I think they assimilate all the germans in collective guilt ,at last all the ones who bears an uniform . Of course they were not going to give to Ike a writen order about that . I even think that ,maybe ,it was no order at all . Face it ,I’ve been doing a war . I know how “works” some things . Even working as private security ,sometimes I’ve seen ( and done) the same (not about to kill people but about to order or cover some things we were surely not allowed to do .) .The chief don’t need to talk . The good subalterne must to know how to interpret some unsaid orders) . A look is enough sometimes ... a sonrise at some situation ,a wink ...at higher level it was maybe one of the clique who had say to Ike something like “Don’t bother to makes some reserve of food to the prisonners “ or something like that .He got the picture .The President won’t be unhappy and will cover him .It was all he needed to know . And persoannally ,he confessed he hated germans too ...Of course it was mandatory to do that during the first months ,after it would call the attention of the world . So after 1946 ,the situation imrpoved . (After all Nicholas Machiavel recomended that if you are “the prince” and you have to kill some of your enemies ,it is better to do it at once and at first .After that you have to be lenient .So the first crimes will be forgotten and you will be remembered as a good guy = the Plan Marshall...)

I’m afraid I don’t find the rights words in english ,but I am sure you understand what I mean . I’m sure something like that happened . And yes ,it is criminal .In this sense Baques is fundamentally right ,too .

A last word about Sauckel : Most of the civilians workers in Germany were volunteers ,this is a fact even if they claimed to have been “deported of the labor” to touch royalties after the war . I remember a friend of my dad ,many years ago .The guy has been sent ,mandatorily ,to work in Germany during the war ...The guy was a freemason (his name was/is Roger Bianchi) so I don’t think he had much love for Nazi Germany .Once he told us that 25% of the profit of the factory where he worked was split between all the workers ( by one of the social laws of National-Socialism) , german or foreigners ,volunteers or not volunteers .....Enough said .
No ,not enough .Another one was an uncle of mine ,Roger Biquet .(He is dead by now ...) He was mandatorily sent to work in Germany . He become so fond of Germany that he bought an house in Germany after the war and passed all his hollidays there ...by the way he was,after the war ,a profesor of german lenguage in a french college .He was so fond of Germany that once I asked him if he was a nazi .He answered that he was surely not a nazi but that national-socialism was socially good ,(go figure.) and they weren’t mistreated at all ... For this reason I don’t buy this crap about the today tales of “labor slaves”. ( It was surely different for the KL inmates.)

In this case I think the real war crime was to hang Sauckel . And yes even the OST workers were paid ( but maybe not so well treated as the western workers ?) .As for instance the ukranian waitresses of the mess of Bad-Toelz .But that’s another story .

[xcalibur]

Rules : I read them , Thompson ,thanks .... Some annotations are in order :

?Severed body parts insufficient in themselves to constitue a person ? . That?s unvoluntarily humoristic . It reminder me of Frankeinstein . (Frank Einstein ,the brother of Albert ?)

?Deads persons who are not only deads? ...idem ... it remembers me of the french military regulations : ? the wartime deserter will be sentenced to death and dismissed of his rank and decorations? like if the fact to be dismissed of his rank could be worse than to be sentenced to death .Well ,for some generals ,maybe ,afterall ....

I wonder how some people who are interested in war (it?s the case of all of us in this forum ,isn?it ?) could be so sissy-pussies about to see a real atrocity pic . In this case ,why don?t they go to an ?Art and Deco Forum? ( Oh ,these pink curtains are delightful ! Did you embroides the little flowers yourself ?)
Of course you may be right about necro-voyeurs ....I didn?t think about it ,at first ...and it is true that some guys are really sick in their heads .But you know what ? the worst is not to see . In reality ,the worst is the smell ,the odor ,Thompson ...

?Links should be posted ?.... yep . But sorry ,I just don?t know how to make a link . I am not really from the computer ? generation . So I?m afraid I will keep posting the old fashioned way .By the way , I don?t know how to reproduce the part of the message of somebody else to answer what he wrotes , in those white rectangular pieces (how do you do that ? pm me .) Also I tried to post a pic in the Lounge and I didn?t found the attachment ?rectangle.... I am not computer-friendly ( computers are not my friends ,neither) and the next time that I will be a dictator I will send Bill Gates to a KL .

?Mutilated persons alive or deads? ...I know some politicians who are lobotomized .Tell them not to appear on TV ,please , that?s against the rules .

Holocaust denial : translation = The political correctness is safe ,but now we can talk a bit about it . This is welcome .

Now that the rules are set up ,let?s go back on business (my next posts .)

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot?

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Xcalibur : 5 on 5 !

[Rob - wssob2]

article 28: Please go to the topic opened by DRG and Luca about a mass grave discovered in Italy in or near a former US POWs camp (the one of Coltano) –which I mentioned in a precedent post in this very topic - and read my answer .Here we have one of these violations .A criminal one . A proven war crime . ( Perpetred by the US 97th infantry division ...why not to open a sticky topic about allies units which committed war crimes ,like you did for the SS units ?)

Ostuf,

Coltano is in Tuscany, near Pisa.

The WWII US Army's 97th Infantry Division never served in Italy.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/et ... ID-ETO.htm

http://www.plaisted.org/brothers/97THID.HTM

I enjoy reading your posts. But You'll need to start getting more facts correct for us to start reading them as anything other than conspiracy theory.

- R

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Rob: Are you sure the 97th never served in Italy ?? Or some units of it ?
Anyway ,I gone check . Even so ,the camp was still watched by US army troops ,so it does not takes out anything of what happened there ...

So now ,we have a question for our italian readers : Which was the US army unit in charge of Coltano camp ???

[Le Page]

Rob's right. The 97th ID was never in Italy...but people always get unit numbers mixed up.

I'm a new member and I've been trying to follow this stupefyingly convoluted series of charges and counter charges and I think that in all this talk of millions we lose sight of the fact that 22,000 deaths is still a she-ot load of human beings, assuming for the moment that that's the correct figure. Add to this the other allied countries and it's absolutely enormous. Also If any living German soldier has personal recollection of dozens or hundreds of dead that he saw, then understandably in his mind that would be a virtual holocaust, magnified out of all proportion.

I will go out on a limb and say that James Bacque is obviously writing to an idea because of his crass statements about Eisenhower's heritage alone. I say "out on a limb" because ordinarily I would be considered to be in league with certain people on this forum who have the appearance of apologizing for NS Germany. But let's call a spade a spade. You've got some "historians" who admire the Nazis and they feel that they can legitimize this by to making the case in some book that "the other side did it too"--"it's OK for me to be a naz-symp because the US killed X million." 22,000 isn't enough--it has to be in the millions. I think Bacque has done a great disservice to revisionists; he should have written about the 22,000 instead of engaging in what I believe is a back door approach to Holocaust minimizing.

PS Am I allowed to post if I'm not wearing any pants?

[xcalibur]

Rob's right. The 97th ID was never in Italy...but people always get unit numbers mixed up.

I'm a new member and I've been trying to follow this stupefyingly convoluted series of charges and counter charges and I think that in all this talk of millions we lose sight of the fact that 22,000 deaths is still a she-ot load of human beings. Add to this the other allied countries and it's absolutely enormous. Also If any living German soldier has personal recollection of dozens or hundreds of dead that he saw, then understandably in his mind that would be a virtual holocaust, magnified out of all proportion.

I will go out on a limb and say that James Bacque is obviously writing to an idea because of his crass statements about Eisenhower's heritage alone. I say "out on a limb" because in view of Ustuf Charlemagnes posts I would say I am in agreement with him (Ustuf C) on most of his views on NS Germany. But let's call a spade a spade. You've got a lot of people who admire the Nazis and the only way they can legitimize this is to make the case that "the other side did it too"--"it's OK for me to be a naz-symp because the US killed X million." 22,000 isn't enough--it has to be in the millions. I think Bacque has done a great disservice to revisionists; he should have written about the 22,000 instead of engaging in what I believe is a back door approach to Holocaust minimizing.

For accuracy's sake, the "crass statements about Eisenhower's heritage" mentioned earlier in this thread are not attributable to Bacque, but rather to the author of the article on the website, one Lt. Col. Gordon "Jack" Mohr.

[Kurt_Steiner]

A bit silly question. If everyobdy acknolewdge that the food resources weren't enough, why not allowing some prisoners (the older and the younger, for instance) to go home?

Sorry, but I fail to understand this.

Oh, something else. Even if the number of dead in Allied camps is far away from the numbers stated by Bacques, we do know that some German prisoners died. Is this a war crime?

Excuse me if I'm messing up the thread.

Best regards

[David Thompson]

Kurt -- You remarked:

A bit silly question. If everyobdy acknolewdge that the food resources weren't enough, why not allowing some prisoners (the older and the younger, for instance) to go home?

Sorry, but I fail to understand this.

On the USAREUR Historian site, you can find the quarterly and cumulative reports for the US Army in Europe during the early days of the occupation:

http://www.history.hqusareur.army.mil/A ... pation.htm

One of the volumes posted on this site is "American Military Occupation of Germany, 1945-1953". At p. 89 you can see this statement:

Disbandment was accomplished as follows: Members of the Home Guard (Volkssturm) were disbanded at once and allowed to go home. German agricultural workers, coal miners, transportation workers, and similarly urgently needed persons, and all German women, were released if they resided in the area where they were prisoners and if they were not war criminals, security suspects, or members of the security police (Schutzstaffel - SS). On 18 May 1945 authority was given to release all prisoners of war over fifty years of age, under the same conditions.

On the next page the report says:

Late in June 1945 discharge was authorized for all Germans except war criminals, security suspects, the large number in automatic arrest categories, and those whose homes were in the Soviet Zone.

This report, and the others on the USAREUR Historian site, are interesting and helpful in researching this period.

You also asked:

Oh, something else. Even if the number of dead in Allied camps is far away from the numbers stated by Bacques, we do know that some German prisoners died. Is this a war crime?

That depends on how and why they died.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Thank you very much, David, for the info.

[Luke_r86]

Hi. Excuse me for expressing an opinion as a new member (not that this is a measure of the worth of ones opinion but more a case of excusing myself to those who might think it presumptuous). I have found this thread very illuminating although quite confusing to follow at times. However, I must admit tht Ostuf Charlemagne raises some very good points. That English is his second language does cause some problems putting his points across coherently. That he is very passionionate about his views also means that he makes many statements which he does not support. However many of his points have a sound base of reality even if he does not argue them in "Lawyer" fashion. His views do seem worthy of closer examination even if it takes much effort.

I would like to mention just ONE of the points he makes by way of support for this. Ostuf rightly pointed out that the Marshal plan was implemented post 1948. In the same breath, he was also rejecting the much espoused "prosperity" of the developing Germany economy as a consequence of the Marshal Plans generosity. Too often, "modern" commentators mention the Marshal Plan and the US in the same breathe as if the US did the Germans a favour at the wars end and set them back on their feet. (One does indeed here this insinuation repeatedly today in connection to the US problem of rebuilding Iraq ie trying to mirror the US "success" with Germany and Japan). Firstly, while the Marshal plan did provide prescriptive funding, it was the Germans themselves who, many literally with their bare hands, largely rebuilt their country. No one could doubt the German cultures steriotypical drive, determination and pride (helped with money from a country who's industrial base was untouched by the war.....who's economy in fact may have grown considerably stronger relative to other countries in the world because of the war). But I digress. Ostuf also very correctly points out that the implementation of the Marshall plan (with all the "success" that it supposedly brought on and which the German Nation should be forever beholden for!) was not implemented till 1948, fully 3 years after the war ended. A lot can happen in 3 years. It is to this that many of Ostuf Charlemayne's unsubstantiated claims refer to (for which I for one forgive him in his desire to make lots of points). 3 years IS a long time and a lot, no doubt a very lot, occurred which has not found its way into "established" historical record. In fact, the US (no less a person than Roosevelt himself and his Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr) had planned "to reduce Germany to nothing more than a race of peasants and swineherds living no more than a basic existence off the land...... that the only way to prevent Germany from going to war yet another time was to level its factories, destroy its mines and make the country forever a pastoral state" (Time life series). The latter US president, Truman, apparently had a change of heart but not for humanitarian reasons it would seem. A buffer between Western Europe and the soviets served far greater purposes it would seem and it took nearly 3 years for that course of action to be decided upon. If one were to believe all that the politically correct established lines popularly communicate today, Germany was liberated from the Nazi regime, Freedom and Democracy generously granted, and with the implementation of the US Marshal plan, Germany has been rebuilt into the shiny democracy that is today. In reality "JCS 1967 specified that Germany was not to be occupied for the purposes of liberation but as a defeated enemy nation. The country was to be disarmed, decentralized and de-nazified" (again my reference to Time Life though there are many other more detailed accounts of this). So much for Liberation and Freedom. This was merely an afterthought, a 3 year afterthought it would seem.

The point I would like to make is that just because one has difficulty following the points Ostuf makes, does NOT negate the value of his views. Many of his points are indeed grounded in reality. Just as many are unpalatable for their challenging of "established" history, most of which has been nicely written by the wars winners, are taken today as established truths and are therefore commonly referenced as such. Missing are many other unpleasant truths which only now is it politically acceptable to start talking about eg the apparent mass ill treatment of German POW's. DP's are also mentioned in previous threads. DP's????? Displaced persons???? Like the estimated 14 Million displaced (largely through ethnic cleansing) from the east? Established history likes to mention the US marshal plan but does not commonly expouse the part played by the US in this human tragedy. Take away an estimated 2 million deaths that occurred during this human movement (no pun intended. These figures I quote are from Geo Epoche and are an example of how some publications are beginning to discuss issues that have largely remained "undiscussed" because the time seems ok). 2 millionion? Thats a lot of people to die, especially when they are young, women and elderly (typically the demograpy of the german displaced from the East). Ostuf appears to be raising some very valid points of his own which are based on reality. Unfortunately, there is a mountain of material that has selectively focused on aspects of history, material that has been written, re-written, quoted, mis-quoted and re-interpeted (like chinese whispers) to become todays "facts" ie written history. And then there is another side which remains largely unwritten and little discussed (the stories of the "losers"). And when these are brought up, there appears to be little "established" written history to support it. More-over, as it runs counter to the mountains of "real" recorded history, it is very quickly subsumed by those quick to reference. My point? Much of what Ostuf asserts may in fact be more truely representative of real history, a history which is only really known to those who have actually felt it and not by those who simply read about it from afar. Most of the people in the former category remain quiet to this day.

Thankyou Ostuf for the opportunty to read your views. You strike me as a well read, knowledgable and thoughtful person (albeit an emotionally charged one though I easily forgive this noting the mass suffering that is associated with the topics you raise). Your views challenge others to think and this in itself is good. This contrasts with some of the shallow views expressed by others in the forum.

David Thompson.......you are attempting to do a very good job as moderator. Unfortunately, you seem to have displaced xcalibur in this discussion thread. Fortunately you have recognised that Ostuf raises some very valid and pertinant discussion points. Thankyou for allowing the thread to continue and in doing so, allowing me to see his points of view. It has been most enlightening.

[David Thompson]

Readers who'd like to know more about some of the topics raised by Luke_r86 may find these threads of interest:

Morgenthau Plan
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8517
JCS 1067 and US military government in Germany
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=21690
Soviet containment and Marshall Plan
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=21292

[Rob - wssob2]

Much of what Ostuf asserts may in fact be more truly representative of real history, a history which is only really known to those who have actually felt it and not by those who simply read about it from afar. Most of the people in the former category remain quiet to this day.

Hmmm. Like the US 71st Infantry Division in Italy or the Holocaust Einsatzgruppen photos faked in Canada by the author of Goodbye Mr. Chips?

BTW I've added a time line to the US occupation of Germany 1945-1951 below. I wanted to remind people that there were other things going on besides the "starving" of "1,000,000 German PWs" during the time during that period



======================

Sept 1944: US issues JC1067 - a directive that describes how occupied Germany will be treated "as a defeated enemy nation" and prohibits fraternization between US troops and German civilians

April 12, 1945: Harry Truman becomes US President

May 1945: Third Reich defeated. Germany occupied and splited into 4 zones of administration. Germany loses eastern European territories; several million volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) either flee or are forced out of eastern European countries. 5 million Germans are homeless; 15 million Germans have fled their homes. In addition, millions of foreign laborers and former concentration camp inmates are wandering occupied Germany; there are an estimated 50-60 million displaced persons ("DPs") in continental Europe during the summer of 1945.

June 1945 Berlin Declaration: former German capital split into 4 occupied zones

July 1945: The "Big Three" (USA, USSR, UK) meet at Potsdam to discuss shape of postwar Europe. JC1067 restrictions against German economy and against fraternization eased ; denazification programs implemented; German economy down to a subsistence level & dependent on black marketeering, with cigarettes becoming the unofficial currency. Food rationing affects all of continiental Europe, with 100 million Europeans eating less than 1,500 calories a day.

Summer 1945 - March 1946: Allies export 1,000,000 tonnes of grain into British zone and 500,000 tonnes of grain into US zone of Germany; despite this, there is a severe food shortage in Germany, as in the USSR and the UK, which institutes a bread ration for the first time in its history

November 1945: Nuremberg trials begin

March 1946: US experienced grain shortage, halts shipments of grain to Germany; US General Clay discusses creating a joint British-US occupied zone and easing occupation restrictions.

Sept 1946 (circa) US Secretary of State James Byres, in a speech broadcasted throughout Germany, announces plans for economic aid to Germany and returning "the Government of Germany to the German people" The speech is a huge success.


October 1946: Judgement at Nuremberg: senior Nazi leaders executed by Allies

June 1947: US Secretary of State George C. Marshall proposes the European Recovery Program

October 1947: USSR imposes Communist government on Poland

February 1948: USSR imposes Communist government on Czechoslovakia

March 1948: USSR imposes Communist government on Rumania; US Congress approves European Recovery Program aka the "Marshall Plan" From 1948 to 1952, the US contributes $13 billion to European economic recovery programs. USSR refuses to participate; eastern European countries suffer as a result

June 1948: USSR imposes Communist government on Hungary

June 1, 1948: UK, France, USA and other European nations announce plans to create a West German state which will enjoy limited sovereignty

June 18, 1948: Introduction of new currency, the West German Mark. Currency reform, combined with strict inflation controls, begin West German economic miracle. USSR reacts with alarm.

June 24, 1948 - Soviets begin blockade of Berlin, cutting off traffic on roads to and from West Germany

June 25, 1948 - USA, France and the UK begin the Berlin Airlift. In 11 months, Western allied aircraft 
- complete 276,926 air sorties
- transport an average of 5,000 tonnes of food per day to the besieged city for a cumulative total of 1,592,287 tonnes
- evacuate 50,000 refugees out of the city

May 12, 1949 - Soviet suspend blockade of Berlin

May 23, 1949 Federal Republic of Germany (aka West Germany) created. German economic miracle continues, thanks in part to $3 billion in direct US aid, investment in new infrastructure (since the old infrastructure was bombed to hell by 1945) cheap labor pool of volksdeutsche immigrants plus no budget allocations to defense

Aug 1949: NATO formed

1951: Diplomatic relations normalized between USA & West Germany

May 5, 1955: West Germany becomes a independent state & allowed to join NATO

1961: since 1945, at least 3.5 million people have fled East Germany (note: this number does not include volksdeutsche who fled or were expelled from other European countries)

URLs on the (West) German "Economic Miracle"

http://www.ecommerce-now.com/images/eco ... ermany.htm

http://www.country-studies.com/germany/ ... eyond.html

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/cou ... acle1.html

===========================

Just curious - I'd like to see a show of hands - how many people on this thread have actually read James Bacques Other Losses?