Dresden Bombing? & Post Liberation Eastern Euro gas Cham

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WalterS
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#91

Post by WalterS » 25 Dec 2004, 01:10

In addition, the site listed by TheKurgann is NOT the British National Archives.

The site is linked to the archives. The site is called "The Learning Curve"

In the section on Dresden, the site implies that Churchill was a war criminal.

It also uses inflated figures for the dresden death toll.
Casualty figures would later reveal up to 150,000 people dead; more than were killed by the atomic bomb at Hiroshima.
http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/heroesv ... efault.htm

This is false. The 150,000 figure has long been debunked. The closer figure, as Taylor relates in his book on Dresden, is about 35,000-40,000.

The section of this site that discusses Dresden is entitled "20th Century Heroes and Villains":

So, TheKurgann's source is NOT the British archives, but a site linked to it. Readers should check out that site and judge it for themselves.

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#92

Post by TheKurgan » 25 Dec 2004, 01:21


Obviously, TheKurgann clings to old myths about Dresden in a pathetic effort to hurl invectives.
I thought insults were not allowed. If I'm going to be shot down for missing a page number here and there, I demand that insults be shot down as well...

Charles

Oh, and a question. Why is the United States Air Force study God Almighty on the subject?????? Why is it so liberally quoted????? Why is IT true, and not the text from the British National Archives that I posted??? The British actually carried out the first portions of the raid. Why are they now lying about their own raid???

If I recall, accounts said the city was VIRTUALLY undefended. Virtually means almost, not completely. See the reports of the actual bomber crews from the British below. Note the second page's reference to very weak defense (in fact, that most of the damage sustained by flak was from planes that flew to the WRONG CITY)

Charles
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#93

Post by TheKurgan » 25 Dec 2004, 01:23

WalterS wrote:In addition, the site listed by TheKurgann is NOT the British National Archives.

The site is linked to the archives. The site is called "The Learning Curve"
Oh, so in your world any site sponsored by the National Archives of Britain is suspect simply because it's not the actual building with the loads of boxes...

Charles

Oh, and about Churchill being a War Criminal, see my post at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.phpt=49432

(which is cited...also, note the lack of David Irving's name in any of my posts or cites)

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A list of what was destroyed.

#94

Post by TheKurgan » 25 Dec 2004, 01:49

Note the paucity of industrial targets ACTUALLY damaged...Here is the transcript of the following gifs (which are the original)


Transcript of Immediate Interpretation Report, 18 February 1945



Within the areas described, damage to public and administrative buildings is very severe, and a number of unidentified industrial buildings, some of which are still burning, are also involved. Other damage includes one of the main railway stations, and two of the bridges across the river. Of these latter, the Carola Bridge is holed and probably unserviceable, the Augustus Bridge is holed, although probably partly serviceable, and there is probable damage to the rail bridge crossing the river. In addition, barracks in the town have been seriously affected.

Details of damage are as follows:

Industrial

A.G. fur Cartounagunindustrie (paper for munitions) slightly damaged.
Brauerei Waldschlosschen, partly gutted and still burning.
Unidentified factories West of Alstadt: severely damaged – some are still burning.

The following are severely damaged or gutted:

Public Buildings

Law Courts
Land Gericht
Carola Ministerien (containing the Ministries of Justice, Finance and Culture)
Rathaus (Noustadt)
Bruptsellant
Landsfinansant
Central Market Hall
Slaughterhouse (still burning)
Schloss
Palace
Albertinum
Johannstadt Hospital
Municipal Hospital
Kunstgewerbe Schule and Museum
Museum of Arts and Crafts
Opera House
Academy of Arts
Archiv

CONFIDENTIAL

Public Services

Electricity Station, Johannstadt
Central Police Station
Post office, Johannstadt

Military

Elbe Barracks, Johannstadt
Alto Grenadier-Kaserno

Transportation

Wettinor Strasse Station
Carola Bridge holed and unserviceable
Augustus Bridge holed but partly serviceable
Rail Bridge probably damaged at Southern abutment.

(Prints 4069-4102)
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#95

Post by David Thompson » 25 Dec 2004, 02:39

Let's avoid personal remarks and insults. They're forbidden here.

TheKurgan wrote:
Note the paucity of industrial targets ACTUALLY damaged...
That's because "daylight precision bombing" in WWII wasn't very precise. This postwar US Strategic Bombing Survey quote and graphic may be of interest to you:

US Strategic Bombing Survey (Europe) on bombing accuracy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 939#395939

You also asked:
Was wondering if there's ANYTHING good to be had at revisionist sites. I haven't come across much, but a few of the articles look promising, singled out amongst the morass of other articles citing apologia and denial; however, I tend to write them off because of where they're posted.
When I first arrived at this forum, I had to field a lot of questions raised by articles posted on revisionist internet sites. My experience has been that many of the contentions in these articles cannot withstand close scrutiny. Some of the articles actually misrepresent the sources they quote. While the footnotes give the essays a superficially scholarly appearance, when checked, the sources given in the footnotes often do not support the major contention of the writer. Some have been, in my opinion, actually fraudulent. Other footnotes in such articles only refer to another secondary source, and simply repeat its conclusions or (mis)characterizations. There's no shortage of inaccuracies in popular history, but one rarely sees such inaccuracies deliberately introduced on the scale employed in the "revisionist" articles. On the whole, I don't think it is prudent to rely upon such sites for accurate information. It is a much better practice to use primary source material as often as possible.
Last edited by David Thompson on 25 Dec 2004, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

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#96

Post by red devil » 25 Dec 2004, 03:09

David Thompson wrote:red devil -- You asked:
Not sure who that rule is directed at but I am here, asking for verification on the information I provided, surely that is not wrong?

Both my warnings are addressed to TheKurgan -- not you. There's nothing wrong with asking for verification of claims here -- if the readers don't, I usually will. If you get to the thread before I do, step right up.

You also asked:
Also I would query why a thread on the bombing of Dresden is containing within a section of "war crimes" ?
Many posters have claimed that the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. I don't think so. It is interesting to note that in the European theater of operations during WWII, the only defendants known to have been put on trial for war crimes arising out of aerial bombardment are a couple of German commanders in Yugoslavia who ordered the bombing Belgrade in April 1941, after it had been declared an "open city".
My thanks on both points. I shall now read tyhe rest of the posts.
Regarding the above site from The Kurgan; it depends on who wrote the article not where the article is contained. History is the opinion of the writer, not the reader.

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#97

Post by WalterS » 25 Dec 2004, 07:29

More silliness from TheKurgann
Oh, and a question. Why is the United States Air Force study God Almighty on the subject?????? Why is it so liberally quoted????? Why is IT true, and not the text from the British National Archives that I posted??? The British actually carried out the first portions of the raid. Why are they now lying about their own raid???
The US study is not "God alimghty." No one says it is. It is, however, an authoritative source that is well sourced and documented. I suggest you read it sometime if you can stop ranting long enough.

No one said that the British are lying about their own raid. You posted some quotes from a site that is linked to the British archives and claimed it was somehow the authoritative word on the subject. You are wrong.
If I recall, accounts said the city was VIRTUALLY undefended.
So what? Are you saying that in warfare one should not attack an enemy where his defenses are weakest? Are you saying that because the Nazi government was incapable of defending its citizenry that the Allies should not have attacked a military target?


Dresden was, indeed, a great tragedy, one of many that resulted from Nazi aggression. It was not, however, a war crime.

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#98

Post by red devil » 25 Dec 2004, 07:46

WalterS wrote:Are you saying that because the Nazi government was incapable of defending its citizenry that the Allies should not have attacked a military target?
If indeed German troops were being staged via Dresden to the Eastern Front, then it was a military target. I would expect that the opening of Moscow archives to western eyes may provide some light on this.

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#99

Post by WalterS » 25 Dec 2004, 08:03

They have been opened. Read Taylor's book. Additionally, there were over 100 shops and factories making war munitions.

You might also read my earlier post at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 931#605931

which discussed these issues.

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#100

Post by TheKurgan » 25 Dec 2004, 08:21

WalterS wrote:More silliness from TheKurgann
First of all, my handle has one "n," not two. Secondly, I grow tired of your insults. If you notice, I don't resort to insulting you.
Oh, and a question. Why is the United States Air Force study God Almighty on the subject?????? Why is it so liberally quoted????? Why is IT true, and not the text from the British National Archives that I posted??? The British actually carried out the first portions of the raid. Why are they now lying about their own raid???

The US study is not "God alimghty." No one says it is. It is, however, an authoritative source that is well sourced and documented. I suggest you read it sometime if you can stop ranting long enough.
Uh, I have read it. For me, the jury is still out about whether or not it's fully genuine or the result of "victors write the history," conveniently leaving out the part about the purposeful bombing of civilian targets. As of yet, I'm not convinced either way; however, I think it is at least possible that there is truth to BOTH sides of the argument (that it's possible Dresden could have been considered a military target and not a military target).

For example, if they went in to bomb the factories, OK, I can accept that. Then why, according to the actual reviews of the bomber crews (who missed the target for the most part), were they simply told to target the big fire on the ground? (see the pictures of the actual bombing logs for corroboration).
No one said that the British are lying about their own raid. You posted some quotes from a site that is linked to the British archives and claimed it was somehow the authoritative word on the subject. You are wrong.
Wrong, eh? Why are YOU always right? That smacks of Kruschev whacking a shoe on the table and claiming he was right no matter what. You accuse me of being silly and lame. I have merely offered contradictory evidence to what the USAAF report says. Why does that make me silly or lame and "hurling invective?" (which I have not done, by the way...invective = swearing, and I have not used foul language.
If I recall, accounts said the city was VIRTUALLY undefended.
So what? Are you saying that in warfare one should not attack an enemy where his defenses are weakest? Are you saying that because the Nazi government was incapable of defending its citizenry that the Allies should not have attacked a military target?
Again, for me the jury is still out about Dresden's "militariness." (is that a word? If not, I just coined it).

Additionally, let's assume for a second that a foreign power invaded the US. Let us further assume that the US is suffering strategic bombing from another country, and the the US is on the brink of losing the war. Sitting there are the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul (which, together, are roughly the same population and size of Dresden). F-15's sit on the tarmac nearby, out of fuel, and there are pitifully few ak-ak guns around. Now, imagine that the city is leveled in a firestorm of incendiary bombs, and heck, let's throw napalm in there as well. The Mall of America flattened, the Metrodome crushed, the University destroyed. 40000 people died.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be harping on the "military" aspect of the Twin Cities making it a legitimate target (The Mississippi river bisects the two cities, and the Mississippi is the main method of moving large quantities of goods north to south in the midwestern US) You know darned well that as an American, you'd be flipping out about it.


Charles

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#101

Post by WalterS » 25 Dec 2004, 08:35

Sorry about the extra "n"

I still think your posts are incredibly silly and show a shocking ignorance of warfare during WWII.
Uh, I have read it. For me, the jury is still out about whether or not it's fully genuine or the result of "victors write the history," conveniently leaving out the part about the purposeful bombing of civilian targets
The USAF study clearly states the military reasons for the attack on Dresden. You may not agree with them, but they're there.

Again, for me the jury is still out about Dresden's "militariness."
Well, I suppose the jury will always be out for you. Obviously you won't let facts get in the way of your conclusions. If 100+ shops and factories making war materials and 28 troop trains passing through each day don't make Dresden a target, then nothing else will.

As for your hypothetical, it is silly and belongs in some other section of the forum. Perhaps the "What if" section where you fantasized about a German victory in WWII. It does not belong in a discussion about Dresden.

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#102

Post by TheKurgan » 25 Dec 2004, 09:20

I still think your posts are incredibly silly and show a shocking ignorance of warfare during WWII.
This is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LA LA LA LA LA LA very loudly to indicate you're not listening. I am not ignorant of WWII. Your behavior indicates you are intolerant of other points of view (even those with cited remarks).

The USAF study clearly states the military reasons for the attack on Dresden. You may not agree with them, but they're there.
And the Bristish information refutes it. Oh, but I forgot. You're always right and those you disagree with you are always wrong. I ask again, why is the American report about the military aspect of Dresden right and the British information about the same event wrong?

Well, I suppose the jury will always be out for you. Obviously you won't let facts get in the way of your conclusions. If 100+ shops and factories making war materials and 28 troop trains passing through each day don't make Dresden a target, then nothing else will.
OK, I give up. The Americans are guiltless, nothing any of their soldiers did was wrong or criminal, they all look like John Wayne with his chin strap hanging down, they all were the saviors of the world, Dresden should have been bombed, we should have listened to Stalin and summarily shot 50000 German officers after the warand heck, maybe Truman should have dropped Fat Man on Berlin, just for the sake of it. I'm sure you could come up with arguments for that, too. Heck, if you were at Byrnes's side in 1945, you could have probably convinced Truman yourself.
As for your hypothetical, it is silly and belongs in some other section of the forum. Perhaps the "What if" section where you fantasized about a German victory in WWII. It does not belong in a discussion about Dresden.
The hypothetical was to give you an idea of how you would feel were your country threatened. As an American myself, I would feel pretty danged angry about that kind of bombing of an American city. But then again, to you any feelings other than your own are worthless to the world. Your arrogance is stunning.

C.

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#103

Post by David Thompson » 25 Dec 2004, 09:27

WalterS -- Drop the abusive rhetoric.

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#104

Post by Johan Björklund » 25 Dec 2004, 15:00

TheKurgan: You're a great example to your fellow countrymen here, gripping the fact that bombing isn´t always right becuase it is done by USAAF. Defending the Dresden raid is like defending deathcamps, given the situation where unarmed civilans are the only target of significance that they hit.
"Nazi Germany brought it upon themself" Sure, just like the US brought Pearl Harbor on themself and 9/11,huh?

With that rethoric ypu could also say that Germany defended Europe from communism.-But the death camps?
-Well they were fair game as they opposed the good thing Germany was fighting for.

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#105

Post by WalterS » 25 Dec 2004, 17:30

You still have not demonstrated that the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. You initially stated that Dresden had no military significance. I pointed out that Dresden did, indeed, possess military significance. I never said Americans and Brits were "guiltless" of anything, but I do contest the claim that the Dresden bombing was a war crime.

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