Boljonggo wrote: ↑01 Feb 2005, 11:05
What I will write here are atrocities little know even in China today, not to mention in any other countries. Since both Nationalist and Communist Chinese governments regard themselves as direct followers of the nationalist “revolutionaries” of 1911, these topics effectively become taboo for so many years and remain so even today.
In October and November 1911, when nationalist troops within the Imperial Army rebeled to force the abdication of the ruling Manchu emperor, they fared poorly against the remaining loyalist Imperial troops on the battlefield. However, they were brain-washed by Chinese nationalist anti-Manchu propoganda thus very good at committing terrible atrocities against ethnic Manchus and Mongolians.
In Xi’an, the capital city of Shaanxi Province, the Chinese Nationalist troops attacked that part of the city where the population was exclusively Bannermen (ethnic Manchus and Mongolians), when they took the city, the nationalists plunged themselves into a uncontrolable fit of plundering, raping and killing. When all was ended, over one thousand male Manchus and Mongolians were either killed or committed suicide together with their families. The Manchu population of this ancient city, where they had been living for over two hundred years, were almost wiped out.
In Hangzhou, the capital city of Zhejiang Province, where Bannermen were also stationed almost three hundred years, the local Manchu and Mongolian population decided to surrender after three day’s resistance when they heard about the fate of their Xi’an brethren. When the nationalist troops promised to spare their lives and houses, they believed and opened the gates to their district. However, the troops immediately murdered the Manchu delegates sent to negotiate the surrender (which was headed by the famous local Manchu scholar Guilin) and started killing and pillaging. When another old Manchu scholar, Sizen, was trying to tell the troops about their previous promise, he was immediated cut to pieces by sabres. Cangming, a student, was killed by his fellow nationalist students only because he was an ethnic Manchu. That day, another hundreds of Manchus and Mongolians were killed in Hangzhou alone. Today, one can barely find a single Manchu in that southern metropolis of several million people.
Of all the cities where Bannermen were previously stationed, with the exception of Pekin (the imperial capital city) and Northeastern Provinces where the Bannermen were majorities at the time, they were attacked and murdered ruthlessly. In Jiangning (today Nanjing, the capital of Jiangsu Province and another Manchu-free city) local Manchus and Mongolians were murdered in drove, their bodies were collected and buried in 13 mass graves outside of the city.
[Main source: Qing Shigao(Draft History of Qing Dynasty), Biographies Tome 283]
Just want to post multiple things the OP is lying about here.
In October and November 1911, when nationalist troops within the Imperial Army rebeled to force the abdication of the ruling Manchu emperor, they fared poorly against the remaining loyalist Imperial troops on the battlefield. However, they were brain-washed by Chinese nationalist anti-Manchu propoganda thus very good at committing terrible atrocities against ethnic Manchus and Mongolians.
The Manchus in the Eight Banner garrisons WERE part of the "loyalist imperial troops" and they were decisively defeated in the brief battle that erupted which is exactly why the Xi'an garrison fell and why the families of those Manchus were massacred. The Manchu banner troops in Xi'an attempted to resist the revolutionaries at the walls of the garrison but were decisively routed.
The Qing loyalist imperial troops that did well on the battlefield were all non-Banner Han troops under the commands of generals like Yuan Shikai and Cao Kun. Yuan Shikai managed to retake Wuhan and Cao Kun was the one who stopped the revolutionaries from advancing into Hebei from Shaanxi. That's why when Yuan Shikai forced the Qing to abdicate, all pro-Qing activity stopped, the only victorious forces on the Qing side were Han soldiers. The Manchu bannermen could do nothing in 1911.
The Mongols who were attacked were Eight Banner Mongols. The Mongols of Inner and Outer Mongolia however have nothing to do with the Eight Banners and they had no loyalty to the Qing since the Qing conquered Inner Mongolia by force and Outer Mongolia only joined the Qing under threat from the Dzungars.
Also Manchus of the Xi'an garrison took part in the Dzungar genocide and fought against Muslims in Xinjiang.
Both Han and Hui of Xi'an participated in the massacring and rape of Manchus in the quarter there after defeating the Manchus in battle.
michael mills wrote: ↑04 Feb 2005, 23:18
In Philip Short's biography of Mao Zedong (Mao: A Life) he makes many mentions of the slaughters that often occured when cities switched hands during the warlord years. Warfare was extremely brutal, and it seems the norm was to eliminate as many enemies as possible before they were able to move against you in return.
Interesting.
The Chinese penchant for killing each other undermines Chinese complaints about the killings perpetrated by Japanese forces during their occupation of Chinese territory after 1937.
In Jiangning (today Nanjing, the capital of Jiangsu Province and another Manchu-free city) local Manchus and Mongolians were murdered in drove, their bodies were collected and buried in 13 mass graves outside of the city.
Interesting.
Than certainly provides a different perspective on the killings perpetrated in the same place, Nanjing, by Japanese forces in January 1938 (27 years later).
It is noteworthy that Japan, in its aggression against China, always claimed to be "liberating" ethnic Manchus and Mongolians from Chinese domination.
Also note that Michael Mills and the Manchu OP totally fail to mention that a massive slaughter and rape orgy was perpetrated against the Manchus and Eight Banner Mongols in 1900 at the hands of western and Japanese troops.
Beijing's inner city was majority Manchu and Eight Banner Mongol since 1644 when the Han civilian residents were ordered to move out by Dorgon to the outer city.
The Eight Nation Alliance, which included Japan, United States, United Kingdom, Italy, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary and Russia absolutely sacked Beijing's inner city in 1900 and went on a months long raping and slaughtering rampage against Manchus there. Manchu women from noble families were kept in siheyuans that were converted into rape brothels by western and Japanese soldiers according to a Japanese journalist who was there.
Western and Japanese troops arrested multiple Manchu officials and officers and had them publicly beheaded in Beijing for supporting the Boxer rebellion. Russian troops also raped and massacred Manchus in the Aigun region of Heilongjiang.
Meanwhile ethnic Han Boxers in Shanxi escaped the Eight Nation alliance occupation.
So its totally dishonest for the OP to claim Manchus thought Japan had good intentions, the Japanese participated in raping and killing Manchus in the Boxer rebellion just 11 years before Han revolutionaries defeated Manchus and massacred and raped them in Xi'an, Taiyuan and Zhenjiang.
Also Xi'an was never occupied by Japan in World War II, all the Han and Hui there are living fine and were never subjected to massacres or rape unlike Manchus who were occupied again by Japanese when Beijing fell in World War II. There were comfort women stations in the inner part of Beijing and Manchu girls were raped by the Japanese again.
