Did anybody else know?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005, 18:29
Location: Attica

Did anybody else know?

#1

Post by Damas » 08 Mar 2005, 02:17

Did anybody of the political or military leadership of the allies of Hitler (Italy, Japan, Rumania...) have any first hand experience (visits maybe?) or actual knowledge (more than rumors) of the existence and the purpose of the concetration camps?
In other words, did anybody else know about what was going on at the concetration camps? Were there any efforts from those who knew, to stop what was happening? Could those who knew be also hold accountable for that?

User avatar
Uninen
Member
Posts: 676
Joined: 21 Feb 2004, 20:26
Location: Festung Europa, Finnland

#2

Post by Uninen » 08 Mar 2005, 02:37

Allies knew too, and Germans tryed to sell Hungarian Jews to allies for trucks..


Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005, 18:29
Location: Attica

#3

Post by Damas » 08 Mar 2005, 02:45

I'm not talking about the Allies (USA, UK etc). I'm talking about the allies of Hitler (Italy, Japan, Bulgaria...). Did they know?

User avatar
Uninen
Member
Posts: 676
Joined: 21 Feb 2004, 20:26
Location: Festung Europa, Finnland

#4

Post by Uninen » 08 Mar 2005, 03:17

Sure you arent, but the matter isnt all that simple you see.. but basicly, everybody knew and had a somekind of part in it, even the allies, so whom do you blame/can blame.. for not trading Hungarian Jews for trucks that Germans would have used on eastern front only, one might blame the western allies at least partly for what happened to them. And so on..
Could those who knew be also hold accountable for that?
As that is what your question ends and comes down to, so i think one cant rule out anybody who knew..
And also, the question is irrelevant as the responsibility is on the shoulders of the person who gives a (criminal) command to murder people and not on those that knew.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 01:35
Location: Finland

Re: Did anybody else know?

#5

Post by Earldor » 08 Mar 2005, 03:50

Damas wrote: Did anybody of the political or military leadership of the allies of Hitler (Italy, Japan, Rumania...) have any first hand experience (visits maybe?) or actual knowledge (more than rumors) of the existence and the purpose of the concetration camps?
Aah, before we go any further, I think you better tell, whether you make a distiction here between concentration camps such as Buchenwald, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, etc. and the extermination camps.
In other words, did anybody else know about what was going on at the concetration camps? Were there any efforts from those who knew, to stop what was happening? Could those who knew be also hold accountable for that?
Everyone knew that Nazi Germany had concentration camps. Did the political leadership know just how brutal the treatment in the camps was? I'm sure some of them knew, especially in other fascist countries.

How well are you acquainted with the history of the KZs and the extermination camps? You do realize that the timescale affects the reactions you ask after.

As for your last question, I'll patronize a bit more :) and ask, do you think that the US could be held accountable, if the British were to execute civilians in the UK, let's say Scotsmen in Edinburgh?

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005, 18:29
Location: Attica

#6

Post by Damas » 08 Mar 2005, 04:25

Aah, before we go any further, I think you better tell, whether you make a distiction here between concentration camps such as Buchenwald, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, etc. and the extermination camps.
Whichever.
Everyone knew that Nazi Germany had concentration camps. Did the political leadership know just how brutal the treatment in the camps was? I'm sure some of them knew, especially in other fascist countries.
Yes, I'm sure they have heard rumors. But did, for example Mussolini knew exactly what was going on these camps? That there was a systematic extermination of certain people?
How well are you acquainted with the history of the KZs and the extermination camps? You do realize that the timescale affects the reactions you ask after.
I'm sorry, don't know much. That's why I'm asking.
As for your last question, I'll patronize a bit more and ask, do you think that the US could be held accountable, if the British were to execute civilians in the UK, let's say Scotsmen in Edinburgh?
Well, if they knew and did nothing to prevent but instead encourage that (in your example by sending their own Scotsmen too), shouldn't they?

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#7

Post by David Thompson » 08 Mar 2005, 04:44

Damas -- Nearly all of the surviving leaders of Axis countries countries after the war admitted knowing about concentration camps, but very few had every visited one. Even fewer admitted knowing that the Jews they were deporting to German custody were being killed.

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005, 18:29
Location: Attica

#8

Post by Damas » 08 Mar 2005, 04:48

So, can you be more specific, please? Who visited the camps and who admited that he knew?

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#9

Post by David Thompson » 08 Mar 2005, 05:03

Damas -- You asked:
So, can you be more specific, please? Who visited the camps and who admited that he knew?
I don't have that information at my fingertips, but I will try to get some more detailed answers for you. I cannot think of any Axis heads of state who visited German concentration camps at all. With one exception -- an Italian official who visited a German concentration camp and photographs of whom were published in Signal magazine -- the only Axis leaders I know of who "visited" the camps did so as prisoners. These were military officers, aristocrats and politicians from Hungary and Italy who had been arrested following regime changes.

I recall having read of some Hungarian officials from the Arrow Cross regime who admitted that they did know that the Jews were to be killed, and some French officials of the Vichy regime found out late in the war -- in the last months of 1944 or early 1945, but there wasn't much they could do about it by then. I'll try to remember where I saw those accounts and run them down for you over the next few days.

As you are no doubt aware, the Finnish and Bulgarian governments resisted turning over or jailing their Jewish citizens. So did the Italian government prior to Mussolini's overthrow. The Croatian government killed many of their country's Jews "in place," as did the Romanian government and the Serbian puppet government. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the officials of those governments were aware of the extermination in Nazi-occupied territories. As I recall, at his postwar trial Marshal Antonescu denied knowing about the German mass murders, although I believe Romanian troops cooperated with the operations of Einsatzgruppe D. For German deportation efforts in Hungary during Admiral Horthy's tenure as head of state, see:

David Irving and the Klessheim Conference
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17408

Whether the statements of Hitler and von Ribbentrop gave, or should have given Horthy constructive notice at that time of the German plan to kill the Jews is open to argument, although with hindsight their statements are chillingly straightforward.

Here is an example of an Axis ally -- Slovakia -- whose leaders did not know about the killings of Jews, at least in 1942. This is from the IMT testimony of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dieter Wisliceny, which you can read in full at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 062#639062
LT. COL. BROOKHART: In your official connection with Section IVA4, did you learn of any order which directed the annihilation of all Jews?

WISLICENY: Yes, I learned of such an order for the first time from Eichmann in the summer of 1942.

LT. COL. BROOKHART: Will you tell the Tribunal under what circumstances and what was the substance of the order?

WISLICENY: In the spring of 1942 about 17,000 Jews were taken from Slovakia to Poland as workers. It was a question of an agreement with the Slovakian Government. The Slovakian Government further asked whether the families of these workers could not be taken to Poland as well. At first Eichmann declined this request.

In April or at the beginning of May 1942 Eichmann told me that henceforward whole families could also be taken to Poland. Eichmann himself was at Bratislava in May 1942 and had discussed the matter with competent members of the Slovakian Government. He visited Minister Mach and the then Prime Minister, Professor Tuka. At that time he assured the Slovakian Government that these Jews would be humanely and decently treated in the Polish ghettos. This was the special wish of the Slovakian Government. As a result of this assurance about 35,000 Jews were taken from Slovakia into Poland. The Slovakian Government, however, made efforts to see that these Jews were, in fact, humanely treated; they particularly

357

3 Jan.46

tried to help such Jews as had been converted to Christianity. Prime Minister Tuka repeatedly asked me to visit him and expressed the wish that a Slovakian delegation be allowed to enter the areas to which the Slovakian Jews were supposed to have been sent. I transmitted this wish to Eichmann and the Slovakian Government even sent him a note on the matter. Eichmann at the time gave an evasive answer.

Then at the end of July or the beginning of August, I went to see him in Berlin and implored him once more to grant the request of the Slovakian Government. I pointed out to him that abroad there were rumors to the effect that all Jews in Poland were being exterminated. I pointed out to him that the Pope had intervened with the Slovakian Government on their behalf. I advised him that such a proceeding, if really true, would seriously injure our prestige, that is, the prestige of Germany, abroad. For all these reasons I begged him to permit the inspection in question. After a lengthy discussion Eichmann told me that this request to visit the Polish ghettos could not be granted under any circumstances whatsoever. In reply to my question "Why?" he said that most of these Jews were no longer alive.

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 01:35
Location: Finland

#10

Post by Earldor » 10 Mar 2005, 02:45

Damas wrote:
Aah, before we go any further, I think you better tell, whether you make a distiction here between concentration camps such as Buchenwald, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, etc. and the extermination camps.
Whichever.
I think that the distinction is important. The camps had different functions at different times. This affects what the leaders should be accountable for.

Here is a site that discusses what the Allies knew about the extermination camps: http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/allies.html
Everyone knew that Nazi Germany had concentration camps. Did the political leadership know just how brutal the treatment in the camps was? I'm sure some of them knew, especially in other fascist countries.
Yes, I'm sure they have heard rumors. But did, for example Mussolini knew exactly what was going on these camps? That there was a systematic extermination of certain people?
When? See, this is why it is important to make the distinction between the KZs and the extermination camps. Mussolini was most likely aware of the brutal treatment of prisoners in the Nazi concentration camps, although it is unclear to me were the Italians shown the same kind of tour that some individual Finns were given of the KZs before the war (note that Finland became a co-belligerent in 1941). My guess is yes.

Certain Finnish diplomats and officers were shown around certain concentration camps. The tours were similar to the ones given by the Nazis to the Red Cross. The reality of the camps was glossed over and only a "picket fence ideal" was presented. But I'm sure that even the general public knew that "the enemies of the state" were incarcerated in concentration camps. But incarceration in a KZ did not necessarily entail extermination.

The extermination camps are another thing. They were a state secret. The first one of these began operations in December 1941, while the first concentration camps were established in 1933. Some information of the extermination camps leaked into Western hands. The Nazis did hint at total destruction on some occasions and news about the Einsatzgruppen killings must have been known to at least some. It is likely that the leaders of Axis nations that allowed their citizens to be deported to these camps knew about their ultimate fate.
How well are you acquainted with the history of the KZs and the extermination camps? You do realize that the timescale affects the reactions you ask after.
I'm sorry, don't know much. That's why I'm asking.
No need to be sorry :) Read more on the subject.
As for your last question, I'll patronize a bit more and ask, do you think that the US could be held accountable, if the British were to execute civilians in the UK, let's say Scotsmen in Edinburgh?
Well, if they knew and did nothing to prevent but instead encourage that (in your example by sending their own Scotsmen too), shouldn't they?


I haven't seen anyone say anything about encouraging. I thought you were simply asking about whether the German allies knew about A) concentration camps B) about extermination camps C) if they did, should they be held accountable.

How can a sovereign nation be held accountable for the actions of another, even if they share a common goal in something?

But if you are asking are the German Allies that allowed their citizens to be deported to death camps accountable for their deeds, I would not hesitate to say yes. Naturally.

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005, 18:29
Location: Attica

#11

Post by Damas » 10 Mar 2005, 03:21

Earldor:
thank you for your message. My question is simple. Did the German allies {I repeat the allies of Germany (Italy, Japan...). NOT the Allies (USA, UK...). Why is it so difficult to understand what I'm saying and everybody talks about the Allies? :roll: } knew in reasonable detail that the citizens of their countries that were deported to the concetration or extermination camps were either massively killed or received treatement that resulted in their deaths, or didn't they?
If they knew, shouldn't they be held accountable too?

User avatar
Earldor
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 01:35
Location: Finland

#12

Post by Earldor » 10 Mar 2005, 12:35

Damas wrote:Earldor:
thank you for your message. My question is simple. Did the German allies {I repeat the allies of Germany (Italy, Japan...). NOT the Allies (USA, UK...).
Yes, I see that you are expecting a simple answer to a simple question. Sorry, it is not that simple. The reasons are manifold and I have tried to explain some of them to you.
Why is it so difficult to understand what I'm saying and everybody talks about the Allies? :roll: }
Because it is easy to show what the Allies knew.
knew in reasonable detail that the citizens of their countries that were deported to the concetration or extermination camps were either massively killed or received treatement that resulted in their deaths, or didn't they?
From 1942 onwards? Some leaders probably did know, some didn't. Could the ones that knew do something about it or were they indifferent or did they agree with the Germans? That is another question depending on the leadership, country and the situation. The Finnish example shows that at least in some circumstances it was possible to say no to the Germans. Did the Finns know about the extermination camps? I highly doubt it. Did they know about the concentration camps, yes they did, but in the pre-war context. Did they deport any Finnish Jews, no. They did deport eight foreign refugees. Was the Finnish government held accountable, yes. The Soviets did prosecute the wartime leadership, but didn't feel that it was necessary to blame it for the Holocaust, instead the man responsible for the deportation of the eight was put on trial by the (red) state police.

It is possible to say that simply by fighting alongside the Germans their allies furthered the Holocaust. But since the reasons for the alliance varies as does the degree of participation in the Holocaust it is again futile to treat the different cases as a bulk.

But you asked specifically about Japan and Italy. I don't think that you can blame the Japanese for the Holocaust. Besides, they have their own horrors to account for. Italy? Again, the situation had changed considerably when the Italian Jews were shipped off to Auschwitz. Hungary? Well, the situation had changed considerably when the bulk of the Hungarian Jews were shipped to Auschwitz... See, not a simple question after all.
If they knew, shouldn't they be held accountable too?
In most cases they were held accountable. Maybe not specifically for the Holocaust, but what kind of retribution did you have in mind? There is plenty of blame to go around but you can hang a person only once.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”