Should Russia seek apology for soviet war-crimes in germany

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Beppo Schmidt
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#106

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 15 Mar 2005, 16:55

Well, how about Serbia and Serbians apologised for the terroristic murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand that led to World War 1, the unjust Versailles Treaty and subsequently led to World War 2?
If I was Serbian, I would not apologize for things which happened in 1914, just as I am German and do not apologize for things which happened in 1939-45. There is no need for people to apologize for things which happened before they were born, that's not an apology, it's collective guilt in action. A legitimate apology is from the people who actually did something wrong, not their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

Karman
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#107

Post by Karman » 15 Mar 2005, 18:10

Qvist wrote: Well, did you expect the world to go from 50 years of enmity to selfless affection in a couple of years? This is a long process. And this change was so drastic that it was probably inevitable that a lot of pent-up and not neccessarily nice things had to happen before many of the good things could. Change is never easy. It wasn't crap, but like everything else it's not a 100% automatic salvation recipe. "Regions you left occupied by others"? Again, did you expect the estonians or the czechs to continue to look to Moscow? The only reason they did in the first place was they had no other choice. And what did you get out of forcing them to do so, ultimately?
Hello Qvist,
Well I do not expect nothing. I actually do not care about nothing. The generation that relied on shared values, mutual-understanding, peace and friendship is gone. They are simply gone killed by experiments sponsored by their Western friends and Allies. At present 60% of the Russian population say that the experience of the last 20 years of history prove that Russia should go her own way and pay no attention to the experience of the rest of the world.
Balls?! :D Well, I hope your balls will be a great source of joy to you to comfort you for the absence of economic progress, civil rights, good neighbourly relations and all the other things that would go down the drain if this was the basis for policy.
Good irony. I do believe that even in Europe the balls for a man mean slightly more than all of civil rights.
“Economic progress”? have you ever been to Moscow?
What is that all for? I mean “economic progress”, “civil rights”, “good neighborly relations”? What is the purpose of all those terms? For me it is simple. All that was invented to limit the national leaders in mobilization of the nation to wit: those leaders that provide worse “economic progress”, weak “civil rights” bad “neighborly relations” are doomed to got less support from the nation and those who are otherwise got better support from the nation. That does not work with Russia. The leaders who are world-wide condemned for the lack of the “economic progress”, lack of “civil rights” and absence of good neighborly relations with the succeeding countries simply called “limitrophes” here are able to mobilize the nation and got the national support.
Firstly, the Poles as presently led seem perfectly able to me to cope rationally with the world, including history, balls or no balls. Secondly, I tend to think of international politics as something that should preferably, for the benefit of all of us, be guided by brains. Thirdly, when countries make it a political aim to demonstrate how strong and tough they are, the reason is usually that they aren't. Fourthly - what a load of bollocks!
First, Poles failed to deal peacefully with their neighbor Russia. They just were in a hurry to believe that the wounded lion is dead. Second, Poles have claims against all their neighbors and almost all nations in the world. Third, the international politics may be guided by brains. But that is so boring. Men should (and must) be guided by balls. Forth, You are 200 per cent correct but those bollocks are so vital.

Actually we can hardly understan each other. You should keep in mind that Russia is at war. The 8th of march is a national holiday - woman's day. As Ramsan Kadyrov put it the best present for Russian women from the Russian army was the dead body of Maskhadov. How would the Norse women appreciate such a gift or at least such a statement?
Ah well, this grievance I can understand, actually. But that's just one small part of the picture after all. [/quote]

Nope. There is no “grievance” there is fury and loathing. There is much more passion in that.
Is there any distinction. The matter is simple. Should it be done again under the same circumstances and in the same conditions? If you think that it should not be ever repeated even if the nonfeasance would result in the collapse of the country than we should say we were wronf and we are sorry. But if under the same circumstances we would repeat the same actions and they would end up with the same result (victory) no apologizes sound convincing.
Well, this is, fortunately, not something any russian leader has said. We are all rather fervently hoping that they aren't thinking it either. Because if they do, we will never trust them. Nor would we have any reason to. .[/quote]

Does anybody trust them? You are happy that most of the Russian people cannot read the foreign mass media and learn what they are writing about them and their country. Otherwise there would be no chance to reach any mutual understanding. What Mr. Putin said is that no country in the world had any moral right to blame the Soviet union for singing the M/R pact after the Allies fed up Hitler with Czechs. He also said do not be in a hurry to blame. Pay more attention to the historical conditions. And that was exactly what the nation expected from him.
P.S. 40% of the Russian population think that Russia should have the leader as Stalin was.
I know. This is a major source of concern for everyone who follows what is happening in Russia. And it should be an even greater worry for Russians themselves. I know there are those who are actually pleased about this, because they think Russia will be listened to more readily if everyone fears what she might become. This is however, of course, a self-defeating illusion.

cheers[/quote]
Let them be concerned. Let them be nervous. Let them have some more feelings than simple satisfaction with their achievements in “civil rights” and “economic progress”. Let them become Teutons and Vikings again. And only than they would got the right to advise and to recommend. So far their opinion is not interesting.

Regards.


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#108

Post by David Thompson » 15 Mar 2005, 18:22

Everyone -- Please avoid personal remarks in posts.

Karman
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#109

Post by Karman » 15 Mar 2005, 18:46

Panzermahn wrote: Until now, nobody could come out with an official order from Hitler to exterminate Jews although there are orders to shoot commissar and commando gangsters

The Soviet President M. Gorbachov apologized for the massacre of 23 thousand prisonners in Katyn. So what is wrong?
The Polish government was not satisfied with the apologize and stareted to merchandize the tragedy. They claimed that the Katyn execution was genocide, a crime against humanity and a military crime. The reply was diplomatic and firm: be reasonable and pay more attention to your own past (Soviet 1920 POWs included). The fact is that after the Gorbi's apologizes the Russian Gvt did not deny its participation in the execution. Though the fact that people in Katyn were killed with use of German weapon still raises many questions.
Woaah... is this a surprising fact? Gorbachev apologised for Russian genocide of Polish officers at Katyn..? I didn't knew that..I was under the impression that Gorbachev handed secret NKVD files that dealt with massacre at Katyn to Lech Walesa and i never heard any single word of apology or compensation...

Any links to help me learned about this gracious Russian apology to the Poles?

Thank you 8O
1. Correction. Gorbachev did not apologize for the genocide. Gorbachev apologized for the execution of Polish officers and civilians in Katyn. Also Eltzyn brought the flowers to the monument of Katyn massacre with the words: "forgive us". They did not acknowledge that ir was the genocide that they apologized for the massacre. Just search on the web. AFAIK Putin offered the compensation to the relatives of the executed people though he also did not acknowledge the genocide. All of them blamed NKVD for the massacre. I wish they bring the monument to Dzerjinsky to Katyn.

2. About the German orders to execute communists and comissars on theterritory of the Soviet Union. Those orders did exist. Some of them were civilians and all of them were Soviet citizens.

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#110

Post by Karman » 15 Mar 2005, 19:23

Reigo wrote:
What are Russians doing in Baltic States? They were born there.
Correction: only part of them were born here whereas a great part is just immigrants.
AFAIK those who were citizens of Estonia in 1940 and their offsprings got citizenship automatically.
besides when in 1991 the management of Baltic states called people to vote against the Soviet Union they promised that all inhabitants of those Soviet Republics would become their citizens after they got independent.
Can you give a source for this claim? (Though I am not expert on the topic, somehow I suspect that it is the Russian press)

AFAIK about 30 per cent of non-Estonians voted for independence. I think that vast majority of this 30 percent are today already citizens. Plus part of those who did not vote for independence.
Well if we consider the official side of the deal then the treaties signed between Russian Federation (Eltzin) and Baltic States in 1991 (when the Russian Federation acknowledged the independence of Baltic States when the Soviet Union still existed) provided that the questions concerned the citisenship will be considered later. During the propaganda campaigns for the independence the leades of Public Fronts of Baltic Republics pursuing for the support of the Russian population claimed that the citizenship will be granted to all who live on the territory of those states. Source? Simple. Just read the mass media of that time.

So it is definite that when the Russian Federation acknowledged the independence of a Baltic State (and she was the first who did it since the United States did it after the RF) the problem of citizenship was agreed to be discussed later on. Now we are discussing it. And that is still not your domestic affairs.

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Qvist
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#111

Post by Qvist » 15 Mar 2005, 19:36

Hi Karman
I do believe that even in Europe the balls for a man mean slightly more than all of civil rights.
To be sure - but preferably for other pursuits than politics. And civil rights and balls can in fact be combined you know.
Let them be concerned. Let them be nervous. Let them have some more feelings than simple satisfaction with their achievements in “civil rights” and “economic progress”. Let them become Teutons and Vikings again. And only than they would got the right to advise and to recommend. So far their opinion is not interesting.
Well, I thought this kind of relentlessly irrational politics went out of fashion with Mussolini, but by all means, if this is how you want to look at it, suit yourself. :)

cheers

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#112

Post by David Thompson » 15 Mar 2005, 22:39

Everyone -- Personal remarks are discouraged in posts here, and insulting personal remarks are forbidden. Avoid both.

Panzermahn
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#113

Post by Panzermahn » 16 Mar 2005, 07:23

What are Russians doing in Baltic States? They were born there. That is not enough for you?
Woahh...i guess i learning something about anthropology here...When did the Russians were considered as Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian? If you said the Russians were born at Baltic states, then why the armed insurrection of the Baltic states from the late 40s to the early 50s? Is this 2nd or 3rd Russian civil war? 8O
If I was Serbian, I would not apologize for things which happened in 1914, just as I am German and do not apologize for things which happened in 1939-45. There is no need for people to apologize for things which happened before they were born, that's not an apology, it's collective guilt in action. A legitimate apology is from the people who actually did something wrong, not their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
That is the point, Germany were forced to apologize for this and that, compensate for this and that but i never seen Russia apologised anything about their war crimes and crimes against humanity

About the German orders to execute communists and comissars on theterritory of the Soviet Union. Those orders did exist. Some of them were civilians and all of them were Soviet citizens.
Did you read my posts..i am saying that there are official orders to execute commissars (but i think the Red Army did not complained and in fact were quite satisfied with it because the Germans are helping to rid the political commissars who were hated by the Red Army soldiers) but not official orders from Hitler to execute Jews..

By the way, if all Soviet citizens were shot, then we don't have such things as Ostlegion, Osttruppen or eastern volunteers

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Qvist
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#114

Post by Qvist » 16 Mar 2005, 09:08

Woahh...i guess i learning something about anthropology here...When did the Russians were considered as Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian? If you said the Russians were born at Baltic states, then why the armed insurrection of the Baltic states from the late 40s to the early 50s? Is this 2nd or 3rd Russian civil war? 8O
Yes you are learning something new about anthropology actually. :) There have been Russian minorities in the baltic countries since the 18th century. However, there was also mass immigration of Russians in the postwar period, at least in Estonia and Latvia.

David - much as I appreciate moderation, I must say for my own part at least that I have not been insulted by anything written here.


cheers

Karman
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#115

Post by Karman » 16 Mar 2005, 09:42

Qvist wrote:Hi Karman
I do believe that even in Europe the balls for a man mean slightly more than all of civil rights.
To be sure - but preferably for other pursuits than politics. And civil rights and balls can in fact be combined you know.
Let them be concerned. Let them be nervous. Let them have some more feelings than simple satisfaction with their achievements in “civil rights” and “economic progress”. Let them become Teutons and Vikings again. And only than they would got the right to advise and to recommend. So far their opinion is not interesting.
Well, I thought this kind of relentlessly irrational politics went out of fashion with Mussolini, but by all means, if this is how you want to look at it, suit yourself. :)

cheers
I see, dear Qvist, you got some more frustrating experience in communicating with Russians. At least I am glad that you were not happy with my advises what the Europeans should be to suit my (or anybody's view on the world). Neither I like the advises what the Russians should be to please their neighbors or anybody in the world.
Regards

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Qvist
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#116

Post by Qvist » 16 Mar 2005, 10:44

Oh, I've had much worse and have no complaints about the discussion, which has been refreshingly frank- like a good discussion should be. I don't think much of this emotional approach to politics that you are arguing, but that's a different matter.

Incidentally though, my point has never been what Russia should be to please me, or the West , or anyone else. I try to stick to pointing out some connections and consequences, and mainly I have dealt with the view of reality that you have presented. Russia can be whatever Russia wants to be, no argument there - what I am trying to understand is why anyone, let alone russians, would want a course of action that would with inevitability leave Russia isolated and weak rather than integrated and prosperous, for no apparent benefit and for no apparent reason. It simply does not make sense to me, so I tend to pressure those who argue this in order to to try and understand their reasons. I have to say that after listening to them (you are not the only one) it still doesn't make any sense to me.

cheers
Last edited by Qvist on 16 Mar 2005, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

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memex
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#117

Post by memex » 16 Mar 2005, 11:27

Karman wrote:
First, Poles failed to deal peacefully with their neighbor Russia. They just were in a hurry to believe that the wounded lion is dead. Second, Poles have claims against all their neighbors and almost all nations in the world.
You exaggerate and simply lie. Just Russia (not simple people but your government) is trying to make impression that Poles are ungrateful and hostile to other nations. Agree, we don't "love" your government (we have no reasons for "love") but Russia is not whole the world, my friend :) Have you the "fallen empire" syndrome? Maybe you can't stand that Poland and other Eastern European nations are not under your "protection" already. "Wielikaja Rassija" (Great Russia) will never return :wink: and you should understand it :wink:
Regarding Katyń - how big number of victims would be enough for you to call Katyń GENOCIDE? 20000 is not enough? I see that your russian standards are much bigger - maybe 100000 or more :| We (Poles) don't understand one thing - why your government don't want admit that Katyń was genocide made by Stalin and his gang (not by simple russian people). I repeat again - we don't blame the whole russian nation (which suffered more then mine), but we don't understand your government. Why it is still so difficult for you to admit that Stalin and communism was evil? At one side you condemn Stalin but at the other side you don't want to call his murders GENOCIDE. It is very strange and curious. Isn't it? Maybe shot at back of the head is very humanitarian in accordance with the russian standards? :|

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#118

Post by Karman » 16 Mar 2005, 11:43

Panzermahn wrote: Did you read my posts..i am saying that there are official orders to execute commissars (but i think the Red Army did not complained and in fact were quite satisfied with it because the Germans are helping to rid the political commissars who were hated by the Red Army soldiers) but not official orders from Hitler to execute Jews..

By the way, if all Soviet citizens were shot, then we don't have such things as Ostlegion, Osttruppen or eastern volunteers
Interesting. But when Hitler attacked Russia on June 22, 1941 there were no such a position in the Red Army as a "political commissar". It was introduced in the course of war agains Germans in July 1941 only and existed till 1942 when it was cancelled by the order of Stalin.

Anyway, I mean that the Red Army, its soldiers and officers did not need any of German interference in solving domestic Russian problems.

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#119

Post by Karman » 16 Mar 2005, 12:10

memex wrote:Karman wrote:
First, Poles failed to deal peacefully with their neighbor Russia. They just were in a hurry to believe that the wounded lion is dead. Second, Poles have claims against all their neighbors and almost all nations in the world.
You exaggerate and simply lie. Just Russia (not simple people but your government) is trying to make impression that Poles are ungrateful and hostile to other nations. Agree, we don't "love" your government (we have no reasons for "love") but Russia is not whole the world, my friend :) Have you the "fallen empire" syndrome? Maybe you can't stand that Poland and other Eastern European nations are not under your "protection" already. "Wielikaja Rassija" (Great Russia) will never return :wink: and you should understand it :wink:
Regarding Katyń - how big number of victims would be enough for you to call Katyń GENOCIDE? 20000 is not enough? I see that your russian standards are much bigger - maybe 100000 or more :| We (Poles) don't understand one thing - why your government don't want admit that Katyń was genocide made by Stalin and his gang (not by simple russian people). I repeat again - we don't blame the whole russian nation (which suffered more then mine), but we don't understand your government. Why it is still so difficult for you to admit that Stalin and communism was evil? At one side you condemn Stalin but at the other side you don't want to call his murders GENOCIDE. It is very strange and curious. Isn't it? Maybe shot at back of the head is very humanitarian in accordance with the russian standards? :|
First. Katyn. Who said 20000 people? Was it the politics of the horrible Soviet Government to murder all Poles being on the territory of the Soviet Union? Were they hunting Poles? Was the nationality "Polish" a good reason to be terrorized by Stalin? How many Poles lived on the territory of the Soviet Union and how many of them suffered from Genocide? Actually I strictly doubt that you know what the term "genocide" mean.

Second. Great Russia. No problem. The Russian Empire is gone and will never return. I completly rely on your knowledge of what already happened and on your knowledge of what would happen in the future. I totally follow your recommendation of what I should understand and what I should not. No problem at all.

The one thing I do not undertand why you are so concerned about that what does not exist anymore. I do not understand why your Seijm is so nervous of banks that reolaced tanks. Why you are so concerned about the future of Gdansk refinery? Great Russia will never return. Sleep well.

Third. I wish you were more careful about the history of your country. Do not like Yalta? No problem. Wait till the time when you will have to return your Western provinces back to Germany.

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#120

Post by David Thompson » 16 Mar 2005, 13:07

Memex -- Personal and national insults are not permitted here. Avoid them.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

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