Israel recognises 'new Schindler'

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Topspeed
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#16

Post by Topspeed » 18 Apr 2005, 10:58

I wonder if the finnish leaders during WW II who refused to give finnish jews in the hands of Gestapo official Heinrich Himmler ought to get a somekinda merit for their actions.

Or are these awards presented only to nazis ?

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#17

Post by Molobo » 18 Apr 2005, 11:41

Or are these awards presented only to nazis ?
The news is mentioned because its rare, most of people awarded were your typical avarage "Joes" who decided to risk their lifes to save innocent persecuted people, often women and children. As to "Nazis" awarded the largest number of people come from non-nazi countries like France or Poland...
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/ind ... teous.html
and other Polish families that underwent huge risks
Poles are the largest group of people presented with that award.

As to the emotions of people who surivived Holocaust-a certain amount of human dignity would suggest that we shouldn't judge too harshly people who lived through living hell like that.
And of course many Jews are greatefull and respective of Polish efforts to help them. Marek Edelman or for another example Adam Rotfeld-who while being saved as a child during WWII lived to become current Polish foreign policy minister.


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#18

Post by simsalabim » 18 Apr 2005, 12:51

Mr Mills wrote:
As the above shows, the award of the status of "Righteous Gentile" by the Jewish Establishment is a totally arbitrary affair, dependant on the whims of Jewish survivors.
May I enquire why mr Mills is using the term 'Jewish Establishment' again? (I say 'again' as mr Mills wrote in this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
A link to the speech by Paul Spiegel, head honcho of the German Jewish Establishment:
Also a definition of 'Jewish establishment' might be useful in this case, as there probably is, in the vision of mr Mills 'a' Jewish Establishment and a German Jewish Establishment.

Also mr Mills wrote:
Political considerations do seem to play a role in the determination of just who is a "righteous gentile", as in the case of Bishop Sheptytsky of Lviv, applications of behalf of whom have consistently been turned down, no doubt due to his support of Ukrainian nationalism.
It amazes me that someone who is generally making statements and claims backed up with literature or documents, now sticks to simple allegations.

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#19

Post by Von Schadewald » 18 Apr 2005, 19:27

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HaEn
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#20

Post by HaEn » 19 Apr 2005, 02:02

I am beginning to feel sorry that I reacted at all to the post.
I did not intend to be "spitefull" against those who received the "honor" as a righteous gentile.
Probably what I was trying to convey is that ANY decent person would help people in need of help.
But I do stand by my personal conviction that a lot of the hoopla is political expediency rather than gratitude.
Enough said !
I'm bowing out.
HN.

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#21

Post by David Thompson » 19 Apr 2005, 07:51

A post from kentaurus which contained insulting personal remarks about another poster was deleted by the moderator. We don't permit that sort of thing here. Please read the section rules posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962
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Reply to Simsalabim

#22

Post by michael mills » 19 Apr 2005, 08:14

I use the term "Jewish Establishment" rather than "The Jews" in order to indicate that I am not attributing a single will to all individual Jews, but rather speaking of the actions of organised Jewish groups.

By "Jewish Establishment" I mean Jewish politicians, Jewish political organisations, Jewish activists, etc. Like any Establishment it consists of a number of separate groups that may at times be in opposition to each other. However, it does have a common, uniting cause in pursuing what it perceives to be the best interests of Jews as a group, and on such matters tends to speak with one voice.

With regard to Bishop Sheptytsky, I would welcome input from anyone who has up-to-date information. My comments were based on the chapter "Metropolitan Andrii Sheptyts'kyi and the Complexities of Ukrainian-Jewish relations", by Shimon Redlich, in the 1997 book "Bitter Legacy: Confronting the Holocaust in the USSR". The chapter itself is a reprint of an article written in 1989, so there may have been later developments.

The chapter ends with this paragraph:
As far as the historical image and memory of Sheptyts'kyi are concerned, various - and at times conflicting - views prevail. The Jewish memory of the man and his deeds is seriously affected, not only by his stands vis-a-vis Ukrainian nationalists and Nazi Germany, but also by the traditionally negative Jewish view of Ukraine and the Ukrainians. The utterly hostile Soviet approach to Sheptyts'kyi may also exerted its influence upon official Israeli decision makers. The fact reamins that in spite of numerous appeals to the Yad Vashem Remembrance Authority, the granting of the "Righteous among the Nations" title to a man who intitiated the survival of some 150 Jews and expressed his criticism of Nazi anti-Jewish policies - has been denied. As this essay shows, Sheptyts'kyi's attitudes toward Jews were marked by tensions, inconsistencies and conflicts. Yet, compared with the churches and populations of Nazi-occupied Europe, Sheptyts'kyi's statements and deeds on behalf of Jews place him among that humane and courageous minority who during the time of trial believed that they were their brothers' keepers.

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Re: Reply to Simsalabim

#23

Post by simsalabim » 19 Apr 2005, 09:39

mr Mills wrote:
I use the term "Jewish Establishment" rather than "The Jews" in order to indicate that I am not attributing a single will to all individual Jews, but rather speaking of the actions of organised Jewish groups.

By "Jewish Establishment" I mean Jewish politicians, Jewish political organisations, Jewish activists, etc. Like any Establishment it consists of a number of separate groups that may at times be in opposition to each other. However, it does have a common, uniting cause in pursuing what it perceives to be the best interests of Jews as a group, and on such matters tends to speak with one voice.
The first paragraph seems to contradict the second to me, but I leave this to the other readers.

mr Mills wrote:
With regard to Bishop Sheptytsky, I would welcome input from anyone who has up-to-date information.
From the article:
The utterly hostile Soviet approach to Sheptyts'kyi may also exerted its influence upon official Israeli decision makers.
'May', I read. I am not familiar with the article you posted, but it looks like just an allegation, like yours.

Interesting enough, Ukrainians are on number 4 on the list of nations of members of the Righteous of Nations with 2079 members. So the 'Jews' didn't consider 'them' as bad at all.

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#24

Post by Mostowka » 20 Apr 2005, 23:27

Mr Mills:

When the Professor wrote "meshuge" [= crazy] I am quite sure he meant it that they were crazy enough to hide people, in face of the extreme risks in doing such an act. It does not literally mean that the person is mad. The yiddish word meshugge is often used in a jokingly way (i.e "He´s gone completly meshugge) and does not imply that a person is mad.

I see that not much has changed here at the forum and that Michael Mills continues to pursue some kind of shady revisionist agenda.

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#25

Post by michael mills » 21 Apr 2005, 07:11

It is perfectly obvious what Professor Thaler meant.

He was saying that gentiles who assisted Jews were not motivated by some sort of higher moral principle, that they were not "righteous", merely "crazy". They were not essentially different from the vast majority of gentiles who did not assist Jews and whom Professor Thaler wrote off a "anti-Semitic"; they were just a bit eccentric and hence acted differently from the majority in this respect.

It is blatantly obvious that when Professor Thaler used the word "meshugge", he was not being complimentary to the gentiles who helped Jews.

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#26

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 25 Apr 2005, 04:41

You think people have to be mentally unstable to help people in need? Or do they only have to be mentally unstable to help Jews?

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#27

Post by michael mills » 25 Apr 2005, 05:40

Please try to read carefully, Beppo.

Go back over the thread and read the messages again, and try very hard to understand what they say.

If necessary, repeat the words aloud until their meaning dawns on you.

It was a Jew, himself a person who had survived owing to assistance from Gentiles, who voiced the opinion that Gentiles who helped Jews were "meshugge", crazy.

Since he also thought that all Gentiles anti-Semitic, he must have considered those who did help Jews to be in some way abnormal, hence a bit crazy, since their actions diverged so much from what he considered the Gentile norm.

The Jewish historian I was quoting from, Professor Shimon Redlich, also a survivor whose family was helped by a simple Ukrainian woman, suggested that the motivation for helping Jews was a mixture of greed and compassion, and I would not disagree with that.

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#28

Post by Molobo » 25 Apr 2005, 14:43

t was a Jew, himself a person who had survived owing to assistance from Gentiles, who voiced the opinion that Gentiles who helped Jews were "meshugge", crazy.
As with word mad the meaning can be different-mad can both mentally instable or daring and courageous against all odds.
Since he also thought that all Gentiles anti-Semitic, he must have considered those who did help Jews to be in some way abnormal, hence a bit crazy,
That's only your view on the thing.Not his.

The Jewish historian I was quoting from, Professor Shimon Redlich, also a survivor whose family was helped by a simple Ukrainian woman, suggested that the motivation for helping Jews was a mixture of greed and compassion, and I would not disagree with that.
There are several cases when helping Jews didn't involve any material benefit at all.
Just like in the case of our Foreign Minister.

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Beppo Schmidt
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#29

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 25 Apr 2005, 14:58

Professor Redlich is one person. Every Jew is not prejudiced against Gentiles anymore than every Australian is a neo-Nazi.

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Re: Israel recognises 'new Schindler'

#30

Post by Frankfurter » 05 Jun 2009, 15:18

I see being declared "Righteous Among The Nations" as a high award for outstanding positive human behavior. In this case, towards Jews.
Somehow you can see it as an equvalent to the Ritterkreuz, only that that widely accepted and, by some, admired award was often handed out for successful killing instead of saving lives.
I for myself know which type of people I admire more.


More about Major Plagge (in German) with many pictures:
http://www.darmstaedter-geschichtswerks ... 4a5g1cqbn5

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