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NOT Romans vs Medieval armies BUT. (History lesson)

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NOT Romans vs Medieval armies BUT. (History lesson)

Postby Alexander39 on 11 May 2005 18:36

Maurice, Conte de Saxe 1696 - 1750, Were the last great leader that France had before the revolution, he was also a great admier of the Romans! Who was De Saxe, and why were he important?
Name: Saxe, Comte de
Variant Name: Hermann Maurice
Birth Date: October 28, 1696
Death Date: November 30, 1750
Place of Birth: Dresden, Germany
Place of Death: Chambord, France
Nationality: French
Gender: Male
Occupations: military leader

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Hermann Maurice, Comte de Saxe (1696-1750), was a marshal of France. His active campaigns, methods of organizing and training troops, and general principles of warfare influenced both his own and later times.

Maurice de Saxe who is known as Marshal Saxe, was born in Dresden on Oct. 28, 1696, the first of the 354 acknowledged illegitimate children of Augustus II, Elector of Saxony and King of Poland. His mother was the Countess Aurora von Konigsmark. Like his father in "his fabulous strength, the immensity of his appetites, and his limitless lust," Saxe also possessed a high intelligence.

When he was twelve years old, Saxe entered the Saxon army. He fought in the battle of Malplaquet under the Duke of Marlborough and Eugene of Savoy. By the time of the Peace of Utrecht, he had participated in four campaigns in Flanders and Pomerania and had commanded a cavalry regiment. He served under Eugene in the war against the Turks and participate in the capture of Belgrade in 1717.
He was one off the ablest leaders of his time and won more than 7 major battles(He never lost one), conquerd 14 cities and 6 fortresses, his troops won more than any other troops (And whit few losses for the time) in the span of 6 years than any other army had done incl Fredrich the great in more than 200 years! (most were squandred by diplomats)
But what really set him apart from others were his 'Mes Reveries' a book publised 1756. 6 years after his death. about the training and organization of the army of the future! one of the things that really sets it apart is it concentration on the use of even the smallest units as independent arms of the army, + the use and organization off supply and support units in all its facets, further more he came whit suggestions of how to motivatet and train the INDIVIDUAL soldier about 150 years before it became even remotely common. (Napoleon was good at motivating his soldiers but never did didly about traning soldiers as individuals).
His suggestion about how to organized his army into legions that were selfcontaining units of 5600 men were inspired by the roman system, and went all the way down to units of 6 men, not something that had been contemplatet since the Mongols!
further more he went into great detail about 'streamlining' the munitions and arms to as few types as possible, he suggestet that each 'maniple' or 256 men had their own light field battery (4 x 2 pounder) as an integral part of their makeup.
He further suggestet the re-introduction of a shorten pike as a weapon whit weigtet ends so it could be used to both stab & crush attacks, about one in four line soldiers were so armed.
Napoleon was a great admier off De Saxe, but he never trustet the 'common' man to be able to follow the princibles that De Saxe had laid down, and therefor would never be able to make full use of the groundwork that Saxe had testet.
One can try to contemplate how well soldiers in Napoleonic times would have reactet to traning and planning that first were in common use around WW2, and how it would have effectet Napoleons campaigns if the French army had been organized in an almost modern fashion!!

Now some history lessons, mostly becourse i hate it when people answers obiviously is obliviously to those they talk down!! :x

Trajans Roman Legions would NOT have been impressed by Medival heavy cavalry, they fought heavy cavalry (And Won) in Persia (Parthia) and on the Russian steppes in the forms of Iazyges & Roloxiani (Sarmatinan peoples). SO please read your history before you ask so inane Quistions about who would win!!!
The Trajan Romans would have massacret EVERY opponent up to the age of gun powder (Mongols ekseptet)
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Postby Miha Grcar on 11 May 2005 20:45

Interresting, I have never heard of him before and yet such a great captain!!

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Postby Tom Houlihan on 11 May 2005 21:38

Yes, very interesting! I'd heard of him, but I never realized quite what he had done!
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Re: NOT Romans vs Medieval armies BUT. (History lesson)

Postby szopen on 12 May 2005 09:09

Alexander39 wrote:He was one off the ablest leaders of his time and won more than 7 major battles(He never lost one), conquerd 14 cities and 6 fortresses, his troops won more than any other troops (And whit few losses for the time) in the span of 6 years than any other army had done incl Fredrich the great in more than 200 years!

My, my, we don't really like history of countries other than France, England and Germany, aren't we..

His suggestion about how to organized his army into legions that were selfcontaining units of 5600 men were inspired by the roman system, and went all the way down to units of 6 men, not something that had been contemplatet since the Mongols!

Yup, we definetely not know anything about history of countries outside western Europe :)


Trajans Roman Legions would NOT have been impressed by Medival heavy cavalry, they fought heavy cavalry (And Won) in Persia (Parthia)


Sometimes they won, sometimes not.

The Trajan Romans would have massacret EVERY opponent up to the age of gun powder (Mongols ekseptet)


Nope. The heavy cavalry in medieval times was very different than Parthian cavalry.

Besides, how do you define age of gun powder, since some people tend to define it differently? In short no army after XIV century would have problems with Roman army (short of problems with creating and supplying XIV century armies).
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Postby KalaVelka on 12 May 2005 11:16

Nope. The heavy cavalry in medieval times was very different than Parthian cavalry.
Yes the Parthian cataphracts, were for sure more heavily armored than any medieval cavalry.
Image

Source: Wikipedia

And they kicked Romans asses at Carrhae in 53 BC using cataphracts.


/Kasper
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Postby David C. Clarke on 12 May 2005 15:45

The Parthians also used light horse archers with compund bows, that made them infinitely more flexible than any medieval European cavalry force. And, as has been pointed out, the Parthian/Sassanid/Persians won about as many campaigns as they lost against the Romans.

Cheers,
~Sapur
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Re: NOT Romans vs Medieval armies BUT. (History lesson)

Postby Alexander39 on 12 May 2005 16:06

szopen wrote:
Alexander39 wrote:He was one off the ablest leaders of his time and won more than 7 major battles(He never lost one), conquerd 14 cities and 6 fortresses, his troops won more than any other troops (And whit few losses for the time) in the span of 6 years than any other army had done incl Fredrich the great in more than 200 years!

1)My, my, we don't really like history of countries other than France, England and Germany, aren't we..

His suggestion about how to organized his army into legions that were selfcontaining units of 5600 men were inspired by the roman system, and went all the way down to units of 6 men, not something that had been contemplatet since the Mongols!

1)Yup, we definetely not know anything about history of countries outside western Europe :)


Trajans Roman Legions would NOT have been impressed by Medival heavy cavalry, they fought heavy cavalry (And Won) in Persia (Parthia)


2)Sometimes they won, sometimes not.

The Trajan Romans would have massacret EVERY opponent up to the age of gun powder (Mongols ekseptet)


3)Nope. The heavy cavalry in medieval times was very different than Parthian cavalry.

4)Besides, how do you define age of gun powder, since some people tend to define it differently? In short no army after XIV century would have problems with Roman army (short of problems with creating and supplying XIV century armies).


1)In fact i'm fairly well (Self)educatet in the history of war and politics, i had read *The Prince*, *Five Rings* & *Of war* by Nicolo Machiavelli, Miyamoto Musashi & Sun Tzu before i was 12 (In english mind you) so no i'm not as eurocentric as you might think, but i usually judge dead personalities, not so much on what they did, as to what they had to work whit and their opponents, fks i sincerly think that Napoleon is seriously overratet as a commander of armies compared to many of his predessesors, not becourse i have anything against the french (I dont) but it is my honest oppinion! and i'm willing to defend it whitout yelling or pouting!
Other great commanders i admired if only whit some depredation is Vlad Tepecs (The Impaler) & Shaka (The beetle) Zulu!

2) We are talking about Trajans legions, NOT Crassus who got his just desserts by the Parthians, mainly becourse he made the cardinal sin of both not securing his supplys and of underestimating his enemies.

3) Truer word seldom said. :) compared to the Parthians and Samartians the heavy cavalry as an institution were an unorganized mob doing medieval times (Byzantines, Sassanids, Sung shock cavalry & Mongols ekseptet) only when under the command of ekstra ordinary leaders were they any were near their potential, otherwise they had a tendency to behave as selfish idiots, and would have been killed (And was) out off hand by disiplined opponents.

4) When the first MOBILE field artillery is common, Then the European armies has moved out of the shadow of the Mongols and Romans, Artillery was noicey and could have won the first battle against Trajans legions, but after that i have my serious doubts that it would have been any advantage, the first artillerys value was in sieges and psychological, but was singulary ineffective as a *doomsday weapon* on the battlefield. otherwise it is whit the invention of the flintlock that the infantry gets is first effective powder weapon!

I don't know but you seem to be a person that have a tendency to jump to conclusions, before you have botherd to try to learn something :) If you instead had either.

A) Correctet me.

B) Shown other possibillities we might both have learned something new! :idea:
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Postby szopen on 13 May 2005 08:45

Medieval cavalry was not a mob :) It's a myth, more or less (thoutgh there were medeival cavalry which behaved like an armed mob). I lost a link to the proper www page (the tile was in latin:) ), but there are many examples from medieval chronicles about manouvres which would be impossible without disciplined forces.

Besides, cavalry was different in every decade in every country :)

Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain), IMHO.
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Postby David C. Clarke on 13 May 2005 13:14

Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain),


Good heavy infantry with its formation unbroken defeats good heavy cavalry unless that cavalry is lucky enough to out-flank the infantry. Of course, in the European Medieval age, there wasn't much good heavy infantry from the time of the Romans to the time of the Swiss. Look at the trouble William the Conquerer had at Hastings.

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Postby Alexander39 on 13 May 2005 16:45

szopen wrote:Medieval cavalry was not a mob :) It's a myth, more or less (thoutgh there were medeival cavalry which behaved like an armed mob). I lost a link to the proper www page (the tile was in latin:) ), but there are many examples from medieval chronicles about manouvres which would be impossible without disciplined forces.

Besides, cavalry was different in every decade in every country :)

Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain), IMHO.


It is true that there was much training in various manouvers the heavy cav was supposed to master, but unfortunantly, there was no overlaying strategy in the chain of command which were the greatest problem in the field of battle since the cavalry, reactet independently in small or larger units as to were there personal/family ties were, It was no accident that the most efficient use of heavy cav in Europe were in eastern europe bordering the russian steppes and in the Byzantine empire, since selfish behavior on the battlefield here had a tendency to remove you from the genepool far faster than in western Europe were hostage taking for ransom were common!
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Postby Polynikes on 13 May 2005 17:30

Marshall Saxe is probably the most under-rated (or unheard of) military commanders ever - another would be Tamerlane.

He despised "fashionable" light cavalry - stating that a squadron of dragoons should have nothing to fear from a horde or hussars. For him there was heavy and medium cavalry and nothing else.
In the last 18th and 19th centuries, European cavalry became a fashion accesory - this would be completely rejected by de Saxe.

For him, the military was a practical profession and not the plaything of amatuers wishing to dress up. He despised decorative uniforms and weapons.

He rejected the curved sabre saying that a cavalryman's principal weapon should be a stout straight sword with its edges deliberately blunted to make the cavalryman thrust rather than slash. I'm not sure what his views were on the lance. In 1906 the British army finally recalled all curved sabres and issued a thrusting sword to all cavalry.

He rejected costume uniform and re-introduced armour for soldiers. This may seem a regressive step but he was also right in this - today body armour is to be found on all modern soldiers.
He took interest in practical clothing describing the type of leather belt a soldier should suspend equipment from, the type of cloak to double as a blanket and shelter (the modern poncho?).
He advocated the use of leather boots worn over greased feet to prevent blisters in wet conditions.
He described the use of a layer system of clothing practiced today with an undershirt, shirt, short jacket and over jacket in cold conditions - a kind of combat jacket for the day.

In short a de Saxe army would be fit for purpose, eqipped and armed for the task at hand rather than resemble a group of rejects from a costume party armed with children's toys.
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Postby Miha Grcar on 13 May 2005 17:37

Fascinating, you got me started... :D Thanks man!!

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Postby KalaVelka on 13 May 2005 22:41

Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain), IMHO.
Heavy cav. would have hard time to charge against greek phalanx. I doupt very much the cavalrys changes.

/Kasper
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Postby Victor on 14 May 2005 09:02

szopen wrote:
Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain), IMHO.


The English longbowmen could and did three times and so did the Janissaries.
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Postby szopen on 14 May 2005 09:56

KalaVelka wrote:
Bsides, no infantry pre modern gunpowder can stand to charge of heavy cavalry (properly equipped and in good terrain), IMHO.
Heavy cav. would have hard time to charge against greek phalanx. I doupt very much the cavalrys changes.
/Kasper


Not really. I say "properly equipped" and "properly used".

First, phalanx is not as mobile as cavalry.

Second, spear wield by cavalrymn can be always of longer reach than by infantryman.

third, in our history, Polish cavalry had no problems with taking pikeman.
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