Wielun, Frampol, Luebeck

[Molobo]

Wait, concerning the "terror bombing" operations, though it might have started with the Luftwaffe and the initial bombings of London in 41, the Allies took those operations to the next level. Many german cities were bombed to the ground, with countless of victims-civilian vicitims.

Did Allies bomb any city that had no military or industry presence at all just for the sake of destroying it like Luftwaffe did ?

[Larry D.]

Molobo said:

Did Allies bomb any city that had no military or industry presence at all just for the sake of destroying it like Luftwaffe did ?

It is said that the Bomber Command attack on Lübeck 28/29 March 1942 was a retaliatory raid on an undefended city with the sole purpose of burning it to the ground in an overt attempt to shatter the morale of the German people. Lübeck had little or no military or industrial presence. The aiming point was the center of the Altstadt and it was gutting with the loss of many old buildings having great historical and architectural importance (the Rathaus, the Marienkirche, etc.). It is also said the famous February 1945 raid on Dresden falls into the same category. Actually, there were a number of others, too, since RAF Bomber Command followed the principle of "area bombing" which had as its objective the ruthless destruction of German cities. Claims have been made that all RAF and USAAF raids on München Stadtmitte were in this category as well. But, Hey, that's war! The Allies were trying to bring it to an end quickly to spare lives (non-German lives, that is). Besides, the Germans started it - both the war and the indescriminate bombing of cities (Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, etc.). What goes around comes around. Tough tamales. If you don't want your cities burned down, don't start wars. Pretty simple.

[Molobo]

It is also said the famous February 1945 raid on Dresden falls into the same category.

Dresden was talked over time and time again on the forum, and time again and again it has been proven that it possed industrial value and military presence.

[Larry D.]

Could be. I didn't say it was, but rather that "It is also said....".

[M.Rausch]

Warsaw and Rotterdam are really bad examples, since they were both legitimate military targets.

[Molobo]

Warsaw and Rotterdam are really bad examples, since they were both legitimate military targets.

We were talking about Luftwaffe's bombing of Frampol and Wielun.

[Larry D.]

Hop said:

It is said that the Bomber Command attack on Lübeck 28/29 March 1942 was a retaliatory raid on an undefended city with the sole purpose of burning it to the ground in an overt attempt to shatter the morale of the German people. Lübeck had little or no military or industrial presence.



The RAF post raid damage assesment notes damage to a dozen factories, 2- 3 destroyed. The Dragerworks factory making oxygen equipment for submarines and aircraft and gas masks severly damaged, the Ewers and Meisner foundry largely destroyed, part of the Jager Lubecker engine factory destroyed, the Blunk and Glutmanm tar and roofing factory damaged, the FR Ewres canning factory gutted, the Ernst Hohmann machinery and iron works largely destroyed, the Carl Thiele and sons enamel factory damaged.

The slaughter house, a brewery, a sawmill and several unidentified factories were destroyed or damaged. The central electric station was destroyed, as was part of the gas works, the tram depot was damaged, as was the main railway station, two sheds in the railway repair works were gutted, two large warehouses in the docks were gutted(one each on the Behn and Kulenkamp quays), one large warehouse damaged, along with a number of small buildings in the docks.

And? All things are relative. There was no German city without at least something of military or industrial importance. It is generally accepted that Lübeck was a purely retaliation raid. As I said, the ordered aiming point was the center of the Altstadt. See: Martin Middlebrook and Chris Everitt, The Bomber Command War Diaries - An Operational Reference Book: 1939-1945 (London: Penguin Books, 1990), pp.251-52. Also see:
Balke, Ulf. Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die Operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwader 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teil 2. Der Luftkrieg Gegen England und über dem deutschen Reich 1941-1945. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1990. ISBN: 3-7637-5884-4. Pb. 531p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices. Bibliography. p.96.
Hooten, E.R. Eagle in Flames: The Fall of the Luftwaffe. London: Arms and Armour Press, 1997. ISBN: 1 86019 995 X. Hb. Dj. 352p. Illus. Tables. Glossary and Abbreviations. Appendices. Bibliography. Index. p.118.
Ramsey, Winston G. (ed.). The Blitz, Then And Now. Volume 3: May 1941 – May 1945. London: Battle of Britain Prints International, Ltd., 1990. ISBN: 0 900913 58 4. Hb (oversize). Dj. 592p. Profusely illus. Maps. Dwgs. Glossary. Index. pp.100-03.
Schramm, Percy E. (ed.). Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht. 1942: Teilband I. München: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1982. ISBN: 3-88199-073-9. p.311.

[Hop]

All things are relative. There was no German city without at least something of military or industrial importance.

Exactly. In fact, the USAAF underlined that with their targetting policy later in the war, which defined military targets to include any city with a railway line, road or rail bridge, etc, then said that any town big enough to show up on radar would have such things and may be assumed to be a military target.

It's just stating the obvious, cities were production centres, and in war a large part of production goes to the military.

It is generally accepted that Lübeck was a purely retaliation raid.

I don't think so. It's generally accepted that Lubeck was chosen ahead of other cities because it was an easy target that could be expected to suffer a lot of damage. As already noted, like any other city it had it's share of industry. Why not hit the easily damaged targets first?

As I said, the ordered aiming point was the center of the Altstadt.

I'll take your word for it, it wouldn't be unusual. The RAF developed their policy of targeting the centre of the city after British experience with German raids in 1940 and 1941, in fact the first RAF area raid was authorised following the Luftwaffe attack on Coventry, and took it's example from that attack.

What the British found is that damage to the infrastructure of the town (water, gas, electricity, housing, transport etc) was more damaging than damage to individual factories. I could expand on that if you like, but it really belongs in a seperate thread.

Am I missing something?? It's the first time I heard the Gloster as being the first operational jet...
Are all the sites wrong?

Mostly, yes. Note there is dispute over the true definition of operational, and the argument is really a bit silly, as both were introduced at almost the same time. It's more a question of semantics than any real historical significance.

[M.Rausch]

Sorry for the sidestepping.

We were talking about Luftwaffe's bombing of Frampol and Wielun.

You did, the poster I cited did not.

[Michate]

We were talking about Luftwaffe's bombing of Frampol and Wielun

Wielun was a bombed for military reasons:

The following excerpt is taken from an article by Horst Boog, which cane be found here.:

Es sind die im Freiburger Militärarchiv einsehbaren Akten und Tagebücher der Luftflotte 4, der 2. Fliegerdivision, der I. Gruppen der Sturzkampfgeschwader 76 und 77 sowie des für die Heeresunterstützung im fraglichen Bereich zuständigen Generals zur besonderen Verfügung Wolfram von Richthofen. Wenn sie nicht übergangen wurden, so wurden sie offenbar nur oberflächlich benutzt, wie in der Sendung die Erwähnung einer polnischen Kavallerieabteilung in Wielun zeigt, während die Quelle von einer polnischen Division (möglicherweise die 28.) in und einer Kavalleriebrigade bei Wielun spricht. Die Quellenbelege ergeben also, daß am Vorabend des Angriffs die genannten polnischen Verbände in bzw. bei Wielun festgestellt wurden, die es zur Unterstützung des vorrückenden deutschen Heeres auszuschalten galt. Sie ergeben ferner, daß die beiden Stuka-Angriffe auf Ziele in der Stadt am Morgen und Mittag des 1. September wegen Bodennebels fehlschlugen.

A short summary of the quoted passage:

As indicated by the records of air fleet 4, second flyer division and the I groups of both Stuka wings 76 and 77 as well as the diary of general von Richthofen, which all can be accessed at the German military archives in Freiburg, at the evening before the attack, German intelligence had identified one Polnish division (possibly the 28th Division) and one Polnish cavalry brigade in Wielun. The attack was aiming to neutralize these units in order to assist advance of the German narmy. According to the same sources both Stuka attacks on the morning and noon of 1 September failed due to ground fog.

The intelligence may simply have been wrong and the Polnish units may have been at another place or have moved away in the mean time.

Nevertheless it is simply not true htat Wielun was bombed only to spread terror - clearly German air doctrine was to let the air force fight enemy forces in support of the army. Repeated spreading of myths does not make them more correct.

Regards,
Michate

[Molobo]

The attack was aiming to neutralize these units in order to assist advance of the German narmy.

And that is why 70 % of buildings were destroyed, hospital(marked!) bombed, civilians on the streets strafed with machine gun fire.
And even if you continue to cite German propaganda, then you are still left with Frampol-a clear case of terror bombing for the sake of pure murder.

[Andreas]

The attack was aiming to neutralize these units in order to assist advance of the German narmy.

And that is why 70 % of buildings were destroyed, hospital(marked!) bombed, civilians on the streets strafed with machine gun fire.
And even if you continue to cite German propaganda, then you are still left with Frampol-a clear case of terror bombing for the sake of pure murder.

Molobo

If you have any proof that Horst Boog is a German propagandist, you are strongly encouraged to post it here. Otherwise I think you should refrain from making such accusations against a man who I understand is the foremost German expert on the air war. That you do not like his conclusions is obvious - it does not make them wrong, or propaganda however.

All the best

Andreas

[Molobo]

http://felsztyn.tripod.com/germaninvasion/id1.html

On 12th September, 1939, the ambulance train, No. 311, carrying the ensigns of the Red Cross, was bombed at Zabinka (Brzesc-nad-Bugiem), and a second time, at 15 kilometres from Zabinka, in the direction of Baranowicze. This train was transporting wounded soldiers.
As a result of the first bombing, there were 8 killed and 30 wounded, and two carriages destroyed. A severely wounded man, seized by panic, attempted to jump out of the window.; he had been disembowelled, and his intestines caught on the frame of the window of the carriage.
During the second bombing 15 bombs were dropped, but they fell beside the train, and the convoy was able to continue on its way.

WIELUN: Has suffered from 2 repeated German air raids bearing incendiary and explosive bombs. German planes machine-gunned machine-gunned the town from a low altitude. The hospital, the synagogue and several blocks of flats were destroyed.

In the village of Dlutow, in the neighbourhood of Pabianice, I saw on the 5th of September, 1939, approximately 12 German planes who had come down to a very low altitude and attacked a convoy of refugees of which I was one. There was not a single soldier among us. There were ten killed and severely wounded. Some panic-stricken women climbed down from the road in order to escape to an open field, instintively trying to conceal themselves from the airmen, but they were discovered and pursued with rounds of machine-gun fire.

On 7th September, in the afternoon, following the main road which leads from Rzeszow to Przeworsk, I saw German planes bombing fleeing refugees. All along my road I found the dismembered corpses of women, children and horses, and carts splintered to bits. The bodies lay on the spot where death had surprised them. Here and there one could see a severed arm or leg and rags of blood-soaked clothing.

It was in the neighbourhood of Lancut that I saw the greatest number of dead.

On 16th of September the civilian hospital of Brody was bombed and burnt down completely. Three doctors, 15 nurses of the Red Cross, and about sixty wounded soldiers and civilians perished on that day.

GDYNIA: 8:30 am. Thirty-six German planes (twin engined JU. 87) bomb the town.

The merchant vessel Gdynia, steaming towards Hel, is bombed and sinks. The German pilots machine-gun the members of the Gdynia's crew, who are attempting to save themselves with lifebelts.