The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

[David Thompson]

Genocide has a legal meaning. It's a crime, which requires a specific intent. Please use the term properly.

UN Convention on Genocide 1948
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66189

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Genocide should imply intent – thus far I have not seen any

The crushing of potential Ukrainian national movement.

There is not a shred of documented evidence - at least on this thread that there was any intent to create a Famine –for whatever reason. It happened because Soviet government used screwed-up method based on screwed up information and then it tried rectify the situation, but like batello pointed out it was too little too late. And please I said before and I say it again: you references to Ukraine only when talking about the Famine are misleading to say nothing about the fact that they ignore all other people who also perished because of the famine but who did not live in Ukraine.

[bratello]

...especially considering the fact that a different course of action, apparently, taken by the government in 1933 and 1934 allowed them to substantially reduce the effect of even smaller harvests of 1933 and 1934.

...no starvation on a major scale (if at all) in 1933-34...

I have to correct myself on my own two previous posts: according to most researchers, for the whole of 1933 and until summer 1934 the famine continued unabated.

[nny]

number of Ukrainians whom were arrested / executed / deported during the 'non-famocide' before and after the

–why is it always Ukrainians????????? Russian, Byelorussian and who ever else do not count?????????? To say nothing that arrests and exiles were done on basis of social status –not the ethnicity. Also can you specify what exactly you trying to proof if you get this numbers?

Quoting you :

Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East. Apparently they realized that it would not arrive in time to avert famine. Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East. Apparently they realized that it would not arrive in time to avert famine. PB protokol 107 point 69/15 (osobaia papka) on 14 March 1932 therefore ordered the 30,000 tons to be exported, evidently intending to use the money thus raised to buy the grain in either Manchuria or Dairen. All 3 million puds were duly bought (mainly in Harbin) and shipped to Vladivostok. The amount of hard currency involved was fairly substantial - the bills came due in May and totaled roughly a third of the monthly foreign exchange outlay for the entire USSR. However it is not at all clear whether the grain that was supposed to be sold abroad to pay them actually went anywhere.

By the beginning of May, with reports of famine pouring in, the Politbiuro had begun to back away from exporting any of the grain it had authorized on 8 March. PB protocol 100 point 6 (osobaia papka) of 16 May 1932 directed the Commissariat of Foreign Trade to divert 35,000 tons of wheat in Ukrainian ports for Ukrainian needs, and to divert another 30,000 tons heading to Leningrad's port-storage facilities to flour mills there and in Moscow. The regime in fact had begun >importing< grain to try to alleviate at least some of the famine. The same PB osobaia papka ordered the distribution of 3 million puds of emergency grain clandestinely bought in Persia: 2 million into the Caucasus and the remaining million into Moscow.
The amount of hard currency involved was fairly substantial - the bills came due in May and totaled roughly a third of the monthly foreign exchange outlay for the entire USSR. However it is not at all clear whether the grain that was supposed to be sold abroad to pay them actually went anywhere.

By the beginning of May, with reports of famine pouring in, the Politbiuro had begun to back away from exporting any of the grain it had authorized on 8 March. PB protocol 100 point 6 (osobaia papka) of 16 May 1932 directed the Commissariat of Foreign Trade to divert 35,000 tons of wheat in Ukrainian ports for Ukrainian needs, and to divert another 30,000 tons heading to Leningrad's port-storage facilities to flour mills there and in Moscow. The regime in fact had begun >importing< grain to try to alleviate at least some of the famine. The same PB osobaia papka ordered the distribution of 3 million puds of emergency grain clandestinely bought in Persia: 2 million into the Caucasus and the remaining million into Moscow.

Of course Russians and Belorussians do count, if they starve to death during this period it is also a very sad thing, and worth looking into to determine if what happened was deliberate. Since you are very able to quote numbers IE quoted above, I'm sorry if my 'myopic' interest in the Ukranians (Since they are considered the 'bread basket' of Russia, and since most books dealing on the subject are referred to as the Ukrainian Famine, not the Soviet famine) has offended you. Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East." Why Ukrainian grain? Why not "Russian" or "Belorussian" grain? Obvious the crisis was in the Ukraine, it may have affected out lying areas, but it was the hardest hit.

As for :

Also can you specify what exactly you trying to proof if you get this numbers?

If you are correct, in that Stalin did the best he could in trying to prevent the famine in the Ukraine, and it was not a deliberate act, the numbers should be a 'weapon' for you, and not something to be released with fear, I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... raine&Cr1=

[David Thompson]

nny -- You asked:

Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East."

and

I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

[nny]

nny -- You asked:

Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East."

and

I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

I'm sorry David, I should have explained myself. Since I don't believe Stalin did everything he could to avert the famine, I don't believe it was the sole result of a 'bad harvest' as some others do, I would like a quotation on the number of executions in the Ukrainian area, which were, I will assume, sometimes of "Kulak" farmers accused of hoarding foodstuffs. If Stalin (or the Bolsheviks) were interested in averting a large famine in the Soviet "Union", which seemed to be centered but not confined to the Ukraine, I would like to see numbers regarding how many people were executed in the area for 'hoarding foodstuffs' in which Stalin (or the Bolsheviks) were trying to avert famine. If this question seems off topic to whether or not the Ukrainian famine was intended, I'm sorry, feel free to delete it, but since no one seems to be providing a counter arguement to the line of thought : Stalin tried to prevent the famine :, I thought I would throw in my thoughts. If you feel like Stalin could execute Ukranian farmers suspected of hoarding foodstuffs (Kulaks), and at the same time provide an effective means of alleviating the famine (centered) in the Ukraine (which, so far I assume is not in contention), then I should ask another question (since executions do not appear relevant), how much food was the Soviet "Union" exporting in the years during the famine? If Stalin was truly dedicated to "reverse the effects of the famine", which the opinion is explicit in this statement :

" Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East. Apparently they realized that it would not arrive in time to avert famine."

There should be no food shipped out of the Soviet "Union" during this famine. Oh and BTW, :

Genocide has a legal meaning. It's a crime, which requires a specific intent. Please use the term properly.

UN Convention on Genocide 1948
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66189

I shouldn't worry so much about this topic, since I'm not Ukrainian, and I really don't care if everyone or anyone dismisses this atrocity as a 'mismanagment' issue of Stalin (whom I'm sure was just swell), but maybe those interested should see the UN sponsered exibit on this famine called the "HOLODOMOR: The Great Man-Made Famine in Ukraine 1932-1933". Since the UN convention in 1948 was so 'pivotal' in proving to all of us that genocide was a 'crime' (thanks for that moral insight), maybe we can look to their 'tolerance to the Ukrainian stance on the Holodomor' and not follow all those whom would like to chalk it up to 'a bad harvest'.

http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/news_031 ... hibit.html

Anyways, this is not my area of 'expertise', nor is it my area of interest, if users wish to portray the famine (arguably in the top 3 for worst man made disasters of the 20th century) as a 'bad harvest', readers here can make their own choice. If the forum staff wishes to indulge the posters pushing these ideas, that is their choice also.

[David Thompson]

If the forum staff wishes to indulge the posters pushing these ideas, that is their choice also.

Our intelligent readers can decide for themselves which explanations to accept and which to reject. The forum staff likes to keep the discussions on topic. That's why you will see questions like:

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

I think the number of trials and punishments by execution or imprisonment for hoarding during the period is on-topic, assuming the figures are available. However, that isn't what you asked for, hence my question.

[Karman]

Since I don't believe Stalin did everything he could to avert the famine, I don't believe it was the sole result of a 'bad harvest' as some others do, I would like a quotation on the number of executions in the Ukrainian area, which were, I will assume, sometimes of "Kulak" farmers accused of hoarding foodstuffs. If Stalin (or the Bolsheviks) were interested in averting a large famine in the Soviet "Union", which seemed to be centered but not confined to the Ukraine, I would like to see numbers regarding how many people were executed in the area for 'hoarding foodstuffs' in which Stalin (or the Bolsheviks) were trying to avert famine. If this question seems off topic to whether or not the Ukrainian famine was intended, I'm sorry, feel free to delete it, but since no one seems to be providing a counter arguement to the line of thought : Stalin tried to prevent the famine :, I thought I would throw in my thoughts. If you feel like Stalin could execute Ukranian farmers suspected of hoarding foodstuffs (Kulaks), and at the same time provide an effective means of alleviating the famine (centered) in the Ukraine (which, so far I assume is not in contention), then I should ask another question (since executions do not appear relevant), how much food was the Soviet "Union" exporting in the years during the famine? If Stalin was truly dedicated to "reverse the effects of the famine", which the opinion is explicit in this statement :

First about "Ykrainian" Famine. The famine was all around the country. Robert W. Davis who proved that Great Famine of 1932-1933 covered the territory inhabited by 77 million people and only 30 million of them were Ukrainians. Why the famine is called Ukrainian? Since there was not a strong definition how to separate Russians from Ukrainians neither in the Tsarist Russia nor in the first years of Bolsheviks. The South-Russian dialect of Don, Kuban and Terskiy cossacks and other population of South Russia was very close to Malorossiyskiy (Ukrainian) dialect so all of them were called of Ukrainian origin. So in the first years of the Soviet State they claimed that Ukrainians lived in the whole Russia up to Tsaritsyn Region (Stalingrad-Volgograd) Besides the Kuban Cossacks are ancestors of famous Ukrainian Zaporozhskiy Cossacks. So all the victims of those regions were included in Ukrainian losses. Just an ethnographic researching issue.

As for "kulaks" . The collectivization as well as the "raskulachivanie" started in 1927. Stalin wrote his famous article "Golovokruzhenie ot Uspekhov" on March 2, 1930. That was announced that collectivization (and "raskulachivanie") were over in 1931 in North Caucasus and in Volga region and were over in Ukraine in summer 1932. So the soviet struggle against "kulaks" had nothing to do with famine since it was over in 1930 after Stalin's article. And in 1932 - 1933 Soviets did not struggle against kulaks but against members of kolkhozes - collective farmers. So all the accusation of hoarding bread did not deal with kulaks at all but with the kolkhoz members. Again when they say of “hoarding” of grain it should be noted that peasants “hoarded” the grain harvested in collective farms. The state considered such a behavior as robbery. Besides the main problem was not that the peasants “stole” the grain from collective farms but that they simply did not want to work there. There was an investigation of 340 kolkhozes in 1933. The findings proved that 19% of collective farmers did not work at kolkhozes at all, 30% worked some time between 1 up to 50 working days. So most of the fields of collective farms were not developed. And sure they stole from there all they could.
Most of the harvested grain was not supplied to storages. But the local authorities trying to hide their inability to organize the work at kolkhozes claimed that they had enough grain in stock.

As for the figures of persecuted people. I do not have the statistics for Ukraine but for the whole Soviet Union only. When they saw that peasants stole bread from kolkhozes Stalin issued the law that established severe punishment for robbery of the socialist property in August 1932. The law which was called the Law of Three Spikelets established either death penalty or 10 years of imprisonment for any robbery of socialist property in any amount. 55 thousand people were sentenced under this law by the beginning of 1933. 2100 of them were sentenced to death (only 1000 of them were executed).

As for the plan of bread supplies to the state from kolkhozes. Peasants supplied 393 million pud in 1930 and 395 million pud in 1931.
According to the joint Order of the Council of People Commissars and Central Committee of VKP(b) from July 6, 1932 the plan for the obligatory bread supplies was 356 million of pud (1 pud = 16 kilos) then it was changed for 267 million pud on November 1, 1932. In reality peasants supplied to the State 136 million pud only on November 1, 1932 .

As for the export of bread. The statistics of the bread export is as follows:

1928 – 100 thousand tons of grain
1929 – 1,3 million tons,
1930 – 4,8 million tons
1931 – 5,2 million tons
1932 – 1,8 million tons
1933 – 1 million tons.

The Soviet Union became the number 1 world importer of machinery and equipment and had 30% in 1930 and 50% in 1931 of the world import of machineries and equipment.

The famine was not a man-made one. This thesis is purely political.

Sources: article of Pikhorovich V.D. O prichinakh i posledstviakh goloda 1932 - 1933 gg na Ukraine
Rogovin V. Z. Vlast i Oppozitzia

[nny]

If the forum staff wishes to indulge the posters pushing these ideas, that is their choice also.

Our intelligent readers can decide for themselves which explanations to accept and which to reject. The forum staff likes to keep the discussions on topic. That's why you will see questions like:

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

I think the number of trials and punishments by execution or imprisonment for hoarding during the period is on-topic, assuming the figures are available. However, that isn't what you asked for, hence my question.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... manitarian

As for keeping the discussions on topic I will post : as for the "humanitarian actions of the Wehrmacht", : First moderator to reply (since this is supposed to be a 'research forum'). :

Something bothers me with this topic. What for is this thread?
Do we really have to proof that many soldiers in a army of millions stayed human beings during the war??

Obviously 'moderators' are not only here to enforce forum rules, but are allowed to push forward their own opinions. I in no way mean to insinuate that you push forward your own opinions in certain threads, but when other forum members, very intelligent members say that they have not visited this forum as much because they feel that some moderators have agendas they wish to put forward, I am reminded of this post. When I asked about 'how many ukrainians were executed during the famine?', I did not wish to engage in a long (one sided) argument with a moderator, I wished to know how many Ukrainians were executed for 'hoarding food', as is described by the original post :

While reports from certain localities of individual incidents of hunger among the peasants have been verified, cases of feigning hunger and starvation have been noted in spite of hidden and buried reserves of food provisions (Letter from the KK/RKI of the North Caucasus; letter from Comrade Kalinin, the chairman of the KK/RKI of the Lower Volga; dispatches of certain political sections of machine tractor stations of the North Caucasus). This represents a new maneuver on the part of the kulaks in their campaign to undermine the gathering of seeds and spring sowing.

When I asked :

I'm just curious, what were considered 'necessary measures'? Since the famine itself is not in dispute, that we can recognize a large number of people starved to death, maybe as little as 2 million, maybe as many as 10 million, what were the necessary measures of dealing with a person that during this period was 'feigning hunger'?

I was hoping for a straight forward answer, from a person who obviously claims to have extensive knowledge of the subject, when I was received with :

why is it always Ukrainians????????? Russian, Byelorussian and who ever else do not count?????????? To say nothing that arrests and exiles were done on basis of social status –not the ethnicity. Also can you specify what exactly you trying to proof if you get this numbers?

Which is obviously a dodging of the question, and I sincierely was hoping for assistance from moderators (as naive as it may sound). Either he knows or he doesn't, either he has knowledge of the subject or he doesn't. Either way his refusal to answer was not challenged by ANYONE. I have freely said I dont' have extensive knowledge of the subject but what I have heard is not good for "Uncle Joe". He wishes to exonerate JS and I am looking for extended information. After his dodging I asked :

Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East."

and...

I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

And far from receiving an answer, I was challenged by a moderator that my posts were off topic. I will now conform to the topic, "How many Ukrainians were executed for hoarding food during the famine?", since :

I'm just curious, what were considered 'necessary measures'? Since the famine itself is not in dispute, that we can recognize a large number of people starved to death, maybe as little as 2 million, maybe as many as 10 million, what were the necessary measures of dealing with a person that during this period was 'feigning hunger'?

'

--was not obvious enough. But since the original poster didn't bother to answer my original question, I won't hold my breath in waiting for an answer to my 'approved' question. Anyways like I said before, I shouldn't be concerned about this subject, since it seems I'm the only one who is. At first I thought it was an issue of people not believing that it was intentional, but in research I have come to dismiss that opinion. Since looking into the matter it isn't that people don't believe it, its that people simply don't care. I would have to quote a review of a book on the faimine that I think resonates extensively throughout this thread : "Here occurred the terror famine of the 1930s, in which Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler murdered Jews. Yet how many in the West remember it? After all, the killing was so--so boring, and ostensibly undramatic." For me, that quote really sums it up.

PS -- DT, what is your stance on the "famine"? Since 'denial' is not allowed in large part for the disrespect it serves to the victims, I'm just interested, and maybe others on this forum would also be interested in the official moderator stance on the soviet "terror?" famine. This will be my last post on this topic since I seem to be the only one emotionally involved in the topic in which I originally had almost zero interest But I will be interested on your official stance.

For others whom are interested in more glorification (or rather exoneration) of Stalin and the communists I would suggest :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

In which one of the posters on this thread suggests that the Molotrov-Ribbentrop pact was a way for Stalin to buy time and develop an alliance with the western allies! They seem to ignore all the aid Uncle Joe sent the Germans during the 'finest hour' of England.

There is also the suggestion that the Russians suffered as much as say the Cossacks, Chechyns or Tartars during the regime. Fascinating (in that NO one has refuted it, well no one that hasn't been banned). Cheers!

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East." Why Ukrainian grain? Why not "Russian" or "Belorussian" grain? Obvious the crisis was in the Ukraine, it may have affected out lying areas, but it was the hardest hit.

Based on what? As Karman had shown -that was hardly the case.

If you are correct, in that Stalin did the best he could in trying to prevent the famine in the Ukraine, and it was not a deliberate act, the numbers should be a 'weapon' for you, and not something to be released with fear, I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

Total deaths of executions thought GULAG history are ranged between 2.5 and 3 million people – that till 1953. And we are not talking executions but rather executions and deaths in custody. Now I am all years if can explain to me how these numbers affected famine.

[David Thompson]

nny --

(1) In your post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 702#771702 , you mentioned this quote, without attribution:

Something bothers me with this topic. What for is this thread?
Do we really have to proof that many soldiers in a army of millions stayed human beings during the war??

Is this supposed to be something I wrote?

(2) You also said, of that post:

Obviously 'moderators' are not only here to enforce forum rules, but are allowed to push forward their own opinions. I in no way mean to insinuate that you push forward your own opinions in certain threads, but when other forum members, very intelligent members say that they have not visited this forum as much because they feel that some moderators have agendas they wish to put forward, I am reminded of this post. When I asked about 'how many ukrainians were executed during the famine?', I did not wish to engage in a long (one sided) argument with a moderator, I wished to know how many Ukrainians were executed for 'hoarding food', as is described by the original post:

(a) For starters, I don't have much regard for "other forum members, very intelligent members [who] say that they have not visited this forum as much because they feel that some moderators have agendas they wish to put forward". If they have something to say here, they can step right up with sourced facts and an informed argument about anything that could be considered a war crime, an aspect of the holocaust, or the supposed "agenda" of a moderator. If they're not willing to discuss their points or problems in the light of day, there's no particular reason to have any concern for them.

(b)

I did not wish to engage in a long (one sided) argument

That makes two of us.

(3) (a) Moving on, the questions you asked, and to which I posted my question, were:

Since Bolshevick terror obviously didn't take a break during this famine, I was wondering if you could provide me with solid numbers regarding the number of "Soviets" executed during this "Soviet" famine in which Stalin was so concerned he assumed the position of (Your Quote) : "Within a week, Stalin, Molotov et al. reversed themselves on shipping any Ukrainian grain to the Far East."

and

I'm looking for these numbers to help others whom are interested to understand how many Ukrainians were executed during the timeframe where there was 'no famine per-se'. If you don't have these numbers, or others can't provide exact numbers, that is okay, from "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" and "Stalin and His Hangmen" I have come to understand that these executions (while providing no concrete numbers) did not stop during the 'famine', in fact they did not even slow down in the face of the massive human catastrophe that we now know as, and the UN recognises as, the Holodomer.

In response to these questions, which I quoted, I asked:

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

Of this, you wrote:

And far from receiving an answer, I was challenged by a moderator that my posts were off topic.

If I think a post is off-topic, I'll say so plainly. If the warning was to all participants in the discussion, it would read:

Please stay on topic.

If the warning were directed at you in particular, it would look like this:

nny -- The topic is the famine. Please stay on it.

If I'm not sure whether the question is on topic or not, my message looks like this:

The subject is the famine. What do these executions have to do with it?

This gives you the opportunity to explain your point, which you did. Having read and re-read your posts in this thread, I didn't and don't think your purpose in asking the statistical question was clear. With the explanation, I thought the purpose of your questions was proper and on-topic, and said so.

(b) You may not be aware of this, but in this forum there are posters who demand irrelevant information from others, simply for the nuisance value and out of a perverse enjoyment of quibbling and parsing. I actively try to discourage argumentative tactics of this sort because they degrade discussion. I have not seen very many of your posts, nor do I know anything about you personally. Your purpose in asking for the information was not clear to me, so I asked you about it.

(4) You also asked:

PS -- DT, what is your stance on the "famine"? Since 'denial' is not allowed in large part for the disrespect it serves to the victims, I'm just interested, and maybe others on this forum would also be interested in the official moderator stance on the soviet "terror?" famine. This will be my last post on this topic since I seem to be the only one emotionally involved in the topic in which I originally had almost zero interest But I will be interested on your official stance.

I don't have an "official stance" on the famine. Since you asked, I will give you my personal opinion about it. There's no question that the famine took place. From my readings, my opinion is that it was partly due to incompetence and partly was deliberately imposed for purposes of selling foodstuffs abroad to raise cash. I cannot tell which of the two was the greater factor in causing the famine (as opposed to a nonfamine food shortage), although I suspect the latter. Certainly, peacetime famines were relatively rare in the countries which composed the western part of the Soviet Union. There is no question in my mind that the famine was deliberately used for purposes of cruel oppression. My personal opinion of Stalin is quite low, and I dislike communism as a system.

I am interested, however, in getting as much factual information as possible on the subject posted here -- both for the readers and myself. Most of my readings on the subject were written during the Cold War, and I am not sure that those works gave me a full and accurate picture. I think that everyone who participates in or reads the thread will benefit from this approach. I don't see that there is much to be gained by becoming emotionally involved in discussing historical problems.

[Karman]

There is also the suggestion that the Russians suffered as much as say the Cossacks, Chechyns or Tartars during the regime. Fascinating (in that NO one has refuted it, well no one that hasn't been banned). Cheers!

Excuse me do you mean that Cossacks are not Russians? What nationality are they in this case?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

According to this article http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2003/0101/tema03.php (in Russian) losses due to the famine are:
about 4 millions for the Ukraine
about 2.4 million for Russia
about 1 million for Kazahstan

[nny]

Thank you DT, I apologize for my outburst, it was unwarranted and regretted. I'm sorry but I felt like I was being unjustly singled out for my "off" topic question, which was only asked after my on topic question was met with derision. It is my fault.

I need to clarify my position, I don't believe Stalin decided to 'steal all the food' from the Ukrainains, thus inducing a famine to 'qwell' the obvious national uprising that was occurring in the region. That Stalin and the Bolsheviks were engaged in a qwelling the Ukrainians in this period is outside the range of the famine, is well documented and should not be in contention, but if people wish to discuss it I believe it should be in a different thread to avoid getting this topic off subject. As far as :

There was no famine per-se in the beginning - there was very bad harvest – not man made just happened to be so this year.

Could we be provided with the numbers in regard to the food produced the year in question? Since the view being pushed forward is "There was no famine per-se in the beginning - there was very bad harvest", the numbers in regard to food produced in 1930 to 1934 should reflect this. From my sources (Please inform me if they are faulty) -

The 1931 harvest was 18.3 million tons of grain.
The 1932 harvest was 14.6 million tons of grain.
The 1933 harvest was 22.3 million tons of grain.
The 1934 harvest was 12.3 million tons of grain.

http://mwukr.problem.org/facts1.htm

In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves. Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military trrops and NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government.

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

Man ­ not nature ­ was the cause of the first mass starvation in Soviet Ukraine. In this respect, the Ukrainian famine of 1921-1923 was very different from the contemporaneous Russian famine, but quite akin to the Ukrainian famine of 1932-1933. Since starvation in Ukraine was the result of a policy of plunder by Lenin's government, the responsibility lies with the Soviet state.

Moscow's treatment of Ukraine at the time of the famine was-that of an imperial government with regard to a rebellious colony. By removing grain from starving Ukraine, the Bolsheviks accomplished several objectives at once: Ukrainian grain helped nourish hungry Russia; it provided a marketable commodity easily exchanged for hard currency in the West; finally, and not insignificantly, it physically weakened Ukrainian opposition to Russian domination. Bullets can miss their target; famines ­ never.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/458814.shtml

I believe it was the 1988 US commission on the Ukrainian famine which determined it to be genocide :

Both of these government pronouncements, of Ukraine and Russia, can probably be credited as a direct reaction to the work of the Commission on the Ukraine Famine headed by Prof. James Mace who is of Scottish American origin. It published an Interim Report in 1987 and submitted its final Report to the United States Congress on April 22, 1988. This report was the final one of six volumes on the famine the Commission published which have given Americans and the entire world considerable documentation, eyewitness testimony and details confirming the 1933 genocide.

In the 19 findings of the Report to Congress by the Commission on the Famine there are three which I think sum up the main points:

1) There is no doubt that large numbers of inhabitants of the Ukrainian SSR and the North Caucasus Territory starved to death in a man-made famine in 1932-1933 caused by the seizure of the 1932 crop by Soviet authorities.

2) The victims of the Ukrainian famine numbered in the millions.

16) Joseph Stalin and those around him committed genocide against Ukrainians in 1932-1933.

http://mwukr.problem.org/genocide.htm

Laws and Decrees

The 7 August 1932 law drafted by Joseph Stalin on the protection of the socialist property stipulated the death penalty for "theft of socialist property". Ukrainian villagers were executed by firing squads for theft of a sack of wheat and in some cases even for two sheaves of corn or a husk of grain.
The 6 December 1932 decree stipulated a complete blockade of villages for allegedly sabotaging the grain procurement campaign - de facto sentencing their Ukrainian inhabitants to execution by starvation.
An unpublished decree signed by Molotov encouraged Russian peasants to settle into the empty or half-empty villages of "the free lands of Ukraine" [and North Caucasus also inhabited by Ukrainians and likewise devastated by the famine].

http://mwukr.problem.org/genocide.htm

And (not that I respect the man at all), Winston Churchill suggests in his memoirs of WWII that Stalin admitted to him that he liquidated 10 million "Kulaks" and that it was the most difficult time of his life (even more difficult than the Nazi invasion).

Stalin told Churchill he liquidated ten million peasants during the 1930's.

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/unknhol.htm

You can find his quote in his book :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039541 ... s&v=glance

Or in "Stalin : The Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Sebag Montefiore or in : Stalin and His Hangmen : The Tyrant and Those Who Killed for Him by Donald Rayfield.



As for subsequent posts :

Excuse me do you mean that Cossacks are not Russians? What nationality are they in this case?

Since this topic is not in a vacuum, I would like to point other users whom may be interested in this topic to your suggestion to another forum member (in regards to the Ukrainian famine) to :

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

The Years of Hunger : Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933
by R. W. Davies (Author), Stephen G. Wheatcroft (Author)

Invest in this book, very pricey, but worth it in terms of telling more or less exactly what happened.

Since Wheatcroft is somewhat regarded as Stalins Irving, and all the connotations that go with that I believe other suggestions by Kunikov should be analysed in this light. I would suspect that if someone asked "what are some good books about WWII to read?" and "Irving - Hitlers War" was suggested, outrage wound ensue, but since Soviet denial flies pretty low under the radar I feel obliged to mention Wheatcroft and his opinions.

Anyways, as for the subsequent question "Are Cossacks not Russians?", well that is not for me to decide, is it? They certainly behaved differently during WWII as a whole, and were treated differently as a whole during the Stalinist era, unless of course that should come under dispute also?

Maybe the Chechyns are mistaken when they believe they were treated differently than the Russians post WWII?

In Anne Applebaums book Gulag: A History, she discusses the nationality issue briefly.

pg 427-428.

...Of these, only the Chechen and Tartar deportations were ever made public in Stalin's lifetime. Their exile, although actually carried out in 1944, was announced in the newspaper Izvestiya as having taken place in June 1946:

During the Great Patriotic War, when the peoples of the USSR were heroically defending the honor and independence of the Motherland in the struggle against the German-Fascist invaders, many Chechen and Crimean Tartars, at the instigation of German agents, joined volunteer units organized by the Germans...In connection with this, the Chechens and Crimean Tartars were resettled in other regions of the USSR.

In fact, there is no evidence of massive Chechen or Tartar collaboration, although the Germans did actively recruit Chechens and Tartars, whereas they did not actively recruit Russians. German forces stopped to the west of Grozny...and no more than a few hundred Chechens crossed the front line...There is no evidence that Tartars collaborated any more or less than did people from other occupied regions of the Soviet Union (or of Europe), or that the Tartars participated in the murder of Crimea's Jews. One historian has pointed out, in fact that more Tartars fought against Nazi Germany in the Red Army than fought with the Wehrmacht.
In fact, Stalin's aim, at least in deporting the Caucasians and the Tartars, was probably not revenge for collaboration. He seems, rather, to have used the war as a form of cover story, as an excuse to carry out long-planned ethnic-cleansing operations. The Czars had dreamed of a Crimea free of the Tartars ever since Catherine the Great had incorporated the Crimean peninsula into the Russian Empire...All the evidence seems to indicate that Stalin simply wanted to wipe his hands of this troublesome, deeply anti-Soviet people.


Applebaum goes on to mention the numbers associated with the deportations, including the Tartars :

There were, by the war's end, 1.2 million deported Soviet Germans, 90,000 Kalmyks, 70,000 Karachai, 390,000 Chechens, 90,000 Ingush, 40,000 Balkars, and 180,000 Crimean Tartars as well as 9,000 Finns and others.

It should be noted that the Chechens were not allowed to return to their homelands till after Stalins death (1953), and that the Tartars were not allowed to return until the 1990s (1994 I believe).

If you goto http://www.anneapplebaum.com there is a great article about the "Chechyn terrorist", in relation to the war on "terror". The (Orwellian) annihilation of history is mesmerising in that we can totally forget the Russian abuse of the Chechens (I know, you'd argue Chechen=Russian), and start counting today victim by victim the death tolls due to Chechen 'terrorists'.

http://www.anneapplebaum.com/communism/ ... nsing.html

Anyway, to make it short, I believe NO, the Cossacks were NOT Russians, not in the sense that Russians were Russians. To draw an analogy, for a long long time the Irish were dominated by the English, but I don't believe they ever wanted, or should have been defined as "British" rather than Irish. Just because you can militarily over power a people and enslave them does not make them property of the state in any way.

[Sven-Eric]

To call Stephen Wheatcroft "Stalin's Irving" is extremely unfair. He is one of the best scholars on the subject. And if you read the book Years of Hunger you can see that even his old anthagonist Robert Conquest in a letter to him admits that the famine was not intentional.

Regards,
Sven-Eric