Long - distance Axis bomb missions

[Andreas]

In August 1943 a Bv138 with u boat refuelling went on an armed recce as far east as the Vilkitski Straits (same longitude as Singapore).

Do you have a source for that?

Thanks.

Andreas

[Andreas]

You may be interested in the book, Luftwaffe over America.

Book Description
The plans that Nazi Germany had to raid--and bomb--New York and the eastern seaboard are revealed in this book. They were based on the use of transoceanic aircraft planes, such as the six-engine JU 390, ME 264, or TA 400, but the Third Reich was unable to produce such machines in sufficient numbers.

I don't know anything about the Ta 400, but the Me 264 and the Ju 390 were primarily designed as reconnaissance planes, AFAIK. In the case of the Me 264, it is not just inability to produce sufficient numbers, but inability to produce anything at all beyond a proto-type. The Me 264 also neatly shows the danger of using Wikipedia as a source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_264 - if none of the planes was ever properly tested, how come that the entry can state that the plane was able to reach NY? Surely those are just factory claims, and these had often been shown to be wrong.

Additionally, according to Neitzel 'Der Einsatz der deutschen Luftwaffe ueber der Nordsee und dem Atlantik', Goering was not interested in an Amerikabomber in 1943, all he wanted was a recon plane that could reach the middle of the Atlantic (there is a quote of a Goering statement to this effect in the book, IIRC).

All the best

Andreas

[Jon G.]

But they [the Condors 3000 miles from their home base] did not go back to their home base, certainly?

All the best

Andreas

No, I presume not, but by April 11 the Luftwaffe probably had bases at Oslo and definitely at Aalborg, Denmark. One of my German ancestors was tasked with buying avgas in Denmark a few days before the German invasion. One of my Danish ancestors was manning an AA gun that could have shot at the German airplanes flying over Copenhagen but ordered not to shoot, for it was all over by then. As it turned out, the German aircraft were only there to drop leaflets. Norway was their real target.

[Hop]

In an article about the Fw 200 Condor, it was stated that three Condors flew to Narvik on April 11 1940 to bomb Royal Navy ships there, and also to drop mail for the isolated German troops outside Narvik. That's of course a miniscule raid, but it's impressive that it was conducted 3000 miles from the Condors' home base.

Where was their home base? The North German coast is approx 1,000 miles from Narvik. For example Bremerhaven is 1068 miles by the great circle route.

[Larry D.]

The young Fw 200 fan needs to read the following book which will give him the correct information:

Shores, Christopher. Fledgling Eagles: The Complete Account of Air Operations During the ‘Phony War’ and Norwegian Campaign, 1940 (London: Grub Street, 1991).

[Jon G.]

I suspect 'young' is not a compliment in context - but then it's a while ago since anyone called me young, so I take it as one. Thanks!

Young or not, I obviously should know better than just mindlessly pass on information gleamed from a magazine about model airplanes. I did not bother checking the distance, which I should have - for range, the Merignac to Stavanger flights regularly carried out by Fw 200 Condors covered more distance than a flight from, say, Hamburg to Narvik would have done.

[Andreas]

Young or not, I obviously should know better than just mindlessly pass on information gleamed from a magazine about model airplanes. I did not bother checking the distance, which I should have - for range, the Merignac to Stavanger flights regularly carried out by Fw 200 Condors covered more distance than a flight from, say, Hamburg to Narvik would have done.

Considerably more. Neitzel gives some of these flights (undertaken by long-range He 111 H-5 of I./KG40 based in Stavanger/Gardemoen (Oslo) or FW 200) in 1941. Flightpath was Stavanger to north of the Faroes to a point in the Atlantic, to south-western tip of Ireland to Merignac. Distances for the He 111 3,161/3,135km, FW 200 3,623/3,460. Max range for the He 111 H-5 3,600km, if they carried two 250kg bombs 3,300km.

Still all far short of 3,000 miles though.

All the best

Andreas

[Von Schadewald]

The Bv138 going as far east as the Vilkitski Strait is from "Kriegsmarine" p68 (Squadron/Signal).

[Zaxy von Danitz]

Sorry for incorrect English but I was reed about mission of special quadro motor Junkers from Crete with 40 commandos to Teheran in 1943, target was a meeting of big leaders of alliance. The mission is almost complete, the special Ju was landing in some 15 km from centre of the city. The attack was not successful but 3 commandos escaped to the plane and return back to Crete. The sourse was from Russian magazine, and if I remember well it was “Argumenti i fakti”.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Hajo Herrmann mentions in his book "Bewegtes Leben" a meeting with his "old Friend" Theo Blaich in Italy , he says they talked about a raid of Blaich to Kamerun ( which is a little bit further than Fort Lamy ! ) .

Any more infos on this attack ??

Jan-Hendrik

[Von Schadewald]

The seventh clip down at this link
http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Casino/Filme/Filme-2.htm
shows DW footage of He111s on a late afternoon strike against Liverpool.

They are carrying maximum bombloads and must've been at the limit of their range. From where would they have flown from and what route would they have take to Liverpool, the commentator referring to "the Irish Sea"?

What routes did the missions to bomb Glasgow and Belfast take and what was the total distance??

[Andreas]

They are carrying maximum bombloads and must've been at the limit of their range. From where would they have flown from and what route would they have take to Liverpool, the commentator referring to "the Irish Sea"?

The straight great circle route from Rennes (III./KG27) to Liverpool airport is 319 nm. I have no idea what the range of a He 111H variant used by that unit would be with full load, but it does not appear to be a huge distance to me.

All the best

Andreas

[Von Schadewald]

Have you the great circle distances for Rennes to Glasgow and Rennes to Belfast?

Is there a web site that gives great circle distances?

What is the maximum practical range of an He111 with full bombload?

[Huck]

you can use this:

http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/java/lat-long.htm

[Andreas]

1) 551 and 487 nm, respectively.

2) http://gc.kls2.com/ - very useful site.

3) No idea. BTW III./KG27 seems to still have flown P models in 1940, together with H.

All the best

Andreas