Of 120,000 soldiers from 6th army captured, only 5000 return

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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WalterS
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#61

Post by WalterS » 05 Nov 2005, 08:46

nny wrote:
and in another you accuse Ireland of being selfish / greedy (without following up my questions of how they were being selfish or greedy and profiting from the war) for not helping defeat the Germans in the Atlantic.
Actually, I quoted a passage from Nicolas Monserrat's novel "The Cruel Sea" in which the author, a former RN officer, makes some strong statements about Irish neutrality and the practical effects it had on the RN's efforts to prosecute the U-Boat war. I posed questions raised by Mr Monserrat's writing but did not actively advocate a position

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=86613
One where you barely conceal your outrage at the Rotterdam attack, but vehemently deny that Dresden was 'terrorism from the air'.
This is demonstrably false. On the subject of Rotterdam I supported British historian Middlebrook's view that the Rotterdam raid itself was not "terrorism," but an unfortunate act of war.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 419#666419



nny wrote:
There were a huge number of German troops, are you suggesting that every one of them was involved in the extermination programs of the Nazis?
Not at all. What I am suggesting, and what is supported by the historical record, is that the German Army from its senior leadership on down was deeply involved in the Nazi extermination policies in the East.

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#62

Post by nny » 07 Nov 2005, 10:37

WalterS wrote:nny wrote:
and in another you accuse Ireland of being selfish / greedy (without following up my questions of how they were being selfish or greedy and profiting from the war) for not helping defeat the Germans in the Atlantic.
Actually, I quoted a passage from Nicolas Monserrat's novel "The Cruel Sea" in which the author, a former RN officer, makes some strong statements about Irish neutrality and the practical effects it had on the RN's efforts to prosecute the U-Boat war. I posed questions raised by Mr Monserrat's writing but did not actively advocate a position
From reading your posts I don't really believe you wish to exonerate anyone of warcrimes, I have read balanced posts of yours where Soviets were on the short end of the stick, but your post to me was designed to be insulting, not informative. As for your post where you did not 'advocate a position', this is what you followed "Mr Monserrats" opinion with (IE the opinion that the Irish 'hid' behind Neutrality to profit from the war" :
"The Cruel Sea" is a novel, not a work of history. Mr Monsarrat served in the Royal Navy during the war and these sentiments, perhaps, reflect his own personal views. Nevertheless his indictment of Ireland is a strong one. We know that Sweden hid behind her neutrality and profited handsomely. Perhaps Ireland is in the same category?
Maybe I'm just stupid, but that seems to indicate you are advocating the position that "Ireland profited handsomely" from WWII.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=86613
One where you barely conceal your outrage at the Rotterdam attack, but vehemently deny that Dresden was 'terrorism from the air'.
This is demonstrably false. On the subject of Rotterdam I supported British historian Middlebrook's view that the Rotterdam raid itself was not "terrorism," but an unfortunate act of war.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 419#666419[/quote]

No not at all, I would not persume to suggest that you were presenting your own ideas, I am saying that you are presenting contradictory ideas. In the same ilk of suggesting that Ireland was being 'greedy' in not helping the English during the battle of the atlantic in one breath, and in the next breath saying that the worst navy of WWII was the German navy (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=83203) I am saying you are holding two contradictory ideas to be true at the same time. If you wished to discuss options the "Allies" had to defeat the Germans faster, surely Irish naval bases were low on that list, but that is not what you wished to discuss.

as for the raid on Rotterdam, which to your credit you do not define as terrorism, you make the following statement :
So, while the Nazi invasion of The Netherlands was, indeed, a "Crime Against the Peace" and could be said to be one giant act of terrorism against a small country, the actual Luftwaffe raid on Rotterdam appears to have been an unfortunate act of war.
These attitudes are far less forgiving than your attitudes on Dresden, which can be fully explored at this post :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &postorder

but include (with regards to post war study on the effectiveness of 'morale' bombing),
The fact that the objective was not achieved does not in any way demean the effort. One can argue about the effectiveness of the bombing campaign, but it is intellectually dishonest and morally reprehensible to equate it with terrorism.
But you also say in another post :
The Allies used every resource at their disposal to crush your vaunted Landser and the horrific, evil, corrupt government he fought for. If that meant filling the skies with planes and bombing the crap out of German cities, the Allies did it.
Its seems strange to me to claim that one bombing was not 'terrorism per se' but that the other bombing was "dishonest and morally reprehensible to equate it with terrorism." Rotterdam occurred in 1940 when the war was anything but decided, killed 800 civilians and occurred when the Wehrmacht was literally on the cities doorsteps. Dresden occurred in 1945, when EVERY logical person knew the war was over, Dresden was packed with refugees, killed as many as 35,000 civilians and while being undeniably a military target, the moral effects of bombing FAR outweighed the gains (as evident by the numerous conversations undertaken since including this one). Churchill even equated it with terrorism in one of his pre-draft speeches. (Hastings : Bomber Command).
Not at all. What I am suggesting, and what is supported by the historical record, is that the German Army from its senior leadership on down was deeply involved in the Nazi extermination policies in the East.
Why even mention it at all? Either the Soviets behaved according to the Geneva / Hague conventions or they didn't. That they didnt' sign one of the documents is no excuse in this day and age. If you wish to say that the soldiers of the 6th army got what they deserved, then just come out and say it, don't tip toe around the issue, then we can get into a discussion about whether every soldier in the sixth army was guilty of war crimes. I have never seen the transcripts of the trials of these soldiers (which is required by the Geneva conventions), but maybe I haven't been looking in the right places? I understand that many Stalin apologists wish to portray these soldiers as murderers (which is why I have not felt the need to respond in kind to those posts) but being an American I would feel better knowing that these soldiers were guilty of being something other than German after Stalingrad was all said and done.


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#63

Post by David Thompson » 07 Nov 2005, 12:25

nny -- The forum exists for the readers, and the purpose of the forum is to discuss historical issues, not other posters and their idea structures. If you feel it necessary to discuss the latter, do it by PM.

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WalterS
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#64

Post by WalterS » 07 Nov 2005, 18:26

For the record, the thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 689#756689 was discussing "The Worst Navy of WWI not WWII.



nny also wrote
Rotterdam occurred in 1940 when the war was anything but decided,
The war against the Netherlands was all but over.

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#65

Post by nny » 15 Nov 2005, 09:37

David Thompson wrote:nny -- The forum exists for the readers, and the purpose of the forum is to discuss historical issues, not other posters and their idea structures. If you feel it necessary to discuss the latter, do it by PM.
Thank you moderator for not deleting my post, and I understand your point. I was simply pointing out the said posters double standards. I didn't want anyone to read his post and mistake it as some sort of unbiased opinion on the German soldiers fate during WWII. I was simply pointing out glaring double standards that existed in many of his other posts and thought it would shine a relevant light on his opinion. I was challenging him to actually state what he was saying indirectly, which to unbiased readers would amount to virtual profanity and barbarism. Barring some moving comment, I will consider my point stated and understood. Thank you.

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#66

Post by David Thompson » 15 Nov 2005, 17:06

nny -- Don't do it again. Your motive was apparent, and that argumentative "technique" is forbidden here.
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Delta3-2
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#67

Post by Delta3-2 » 19 Nov 2005, 11:42

Here in the United States we tend to think that "Americans, don't do that !" Well, people are people, nationality means little when it comes down to survival or compassion.

Many years ago I started going to this barber, Tomahawk Tony I called him. After a couple trips to him I had noticed on the wall, across from the chair I was in, a Bronze Star with V device citation. I asked him what that was for. He responded that it was awarded for his actions as a cannoneer in an artillery unit during the Battle of the Bulge. He then went on that it was specifically awarded for him and his cannon crew for breaking out of an encirclement by HEER troops. He then describes that they had 5 German POWs with them when the radio message came to destroy their gun and attempt to break out of the encirclement. Tony then continues to describe how the crewmembers discussed what they would do with the POWs. It was decided that they certainly could not take them along. It was further decided that the cannon crew would have to kill them as they couldn't take them and they wouldn't leave them. Tony ends his story telling me that they drew straws and that thankfully, he Tony, did not have to do the deed. Rather, one of the younger, Gung-Ho types drew the short straw and gleefully shot each of the five in the back of the head.

I've never forgotten that story. War is war. No combative is immune from the horrors of it.

Dan G.

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#68

Post by David Thompson » 19 Nov 2005, 17:03

Delta3-2 -- What, if anything, does your anecdote have to do with the topic of the treatment of German POWs by the Soviet Union?

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#69

Post by Epaminondas » 19 Nov 2005, 22:32

Bottom line? If were were an ordinary, nonpolitical, soldier [ie not SS of any branch; Soviet internal police], not part a unit known for warcrimes [rightly or wrongly; ie if you were 12th SS, don't get captured by Canadians; or Rainbow division by Germans; or bomber crew over Germany]...

You definitely did not want to get captured by the Russians, Japanese or partisians of any kind. As far as prisioner of war treatment, probably being captured by the Americans or other Western allies was the best. Followed by Germany, if you were a westerner.

---

sure, America and Britain don't talk about it, but we did use POWs as slave labor in WWII. There is a big difference between the usage of POW in America, versus the usage of slavs in the german factories. Heck, Americans even let the POWs drive cars [not like they could go anywhere].

===

No one's hands were clean in WWII. Some were worse then others (German, Russia).

Delta3-2
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#70

Post by Delta3-2 » 20 Nov 2005, 12:45

David Thompson wrote:Delta3-2 -- What, if anything, does your anecdote have to do with the topic of the treatment of German POWs by the Soviet Union?
Perhaps you should read FormerSoldiers comments starting this entire thread.

To the Victors belong the Spoils ! That's why the Soviets weren't challenged on their treatment of German POWS.

My little "anecdote" only goes to show the reader that as pure and clean as the Western Allies make themselves out to be we (Americans/Brits/Canadians/Poles/etc., etc.,) could be no less barbaric or cruel than the Soviets were. And in the case of the Soviets....they lost more than 20 million people at the hands of the Germans.

My point is, one or 1,000,000 million killed the loss of life is a terrible thing. The Soviet treatment of German POWs is no more barbaric then German's treatment of not only Soviet POWS but their treatment of civilians. Or have you forgotten Germany's systematic effort to destroy European Jewry, commonly known in the United States as the Holocaust ?

The Germans are lucky the Soviets didn't kill every man, woman, and child when they entered Germany.

Dan G.

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#71

Post by Delta3-2 » 20 Nov 2005, 12:56

NNY...per your comment in an above thread...."Why even mention it at all? Either the Soviets behaved according to the Geneva / Hague conventions or they didn't. That they didnt' sign one of the documents is no excuse in this day and age. If you wish to say that the soldiers of the 6th army got what they deserved, then just come out and say it, don't tip toe around the issue, then we can get into a discussion about whether every soldier in the sixth army was guilty of war crimes. I have never seen the transcripts of the trials of these soldiers (which is required by the Geneva conventions), but maybe I haven't been looking in the right places? I understand that many Stalin apologists wish to portray these soldiers as murderers (which is why I have not felt the need to respond in kind to those posts) but being an American I would feel better knowing that these soldiers were guilty of being something other than German after Stalingrad was all said and done."

The fact that German troops were even on Soviet territory in a German uniform makes them guilty in my book. Each and every one of them contributed to the Reich's effort to annihilate Soviet citizens, military or civilian. As I indicated in my earlier posting....German POWs got what they deserved from the Soviets.


BTW...I'm an American too. The difference between you and I is I don't live in Massachusetts.

Dan G.

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#72

Post by David Thompson » 20 Nov 2005, 16:31

Delta3-2 -- You provided an anecdote about American soldiers in the Ardennes who supposedly killed a German POW. I asked you:
What, if anything, does your anecdote have to do with the topic of the treatment of German POWs by the Soviet Union?

You replied:
Perhaps you should read FormerSoldiers comments starting this entire thread.
I have read it, and your anecdote has nothing to do with this thread, which is about the fate of the German soldiers captured at Stalingrad by Soviet forces.
Although there are occasionally exceptions, the forum management tries to keep a thread on a single topic. This makes it easier for readers to follow, and for researchers to subsequently locate, the discussions. If a poster would like to see further discussion of off-topic matters, please raise the subject in a pre-existing thread on that topic or, if there are no pre-existing threads, on a separate thread.

Non-complying posts are subject to deletion after warning.
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tonyh
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#73

Post by tonyh » 21 Nov 2005, 12:07

The fact that German troops were even on Soviet territory in a German uniform makes them guilty in my book. Each and every one of them....
Jesus Christ :roll:

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#74

Post by Despot » 22 Nov 2005, 11:46

The fact that German troops were even on Soviet territory in a German uniform makes them guilty in my book. Each and every one of them contributed to the Reich's effort to annihilate Soviet citizens, military or civilian. As I indicated in my earlier posting....German POWs got what they deserved from the Soviets.
That's an incredibly offensive and thoroughy disgusting thing to say. There's no defending the murder of POW's as being "deserved". You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

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#75

Post by David Thompson » 22 Nov 2005, 17:44

The fact that German troops were even on Soviet territory in a German uniform makes them guilty in my book. Each and every one of them contributed to the Reich's effort to annihilate Soviet citizens, military or civilian. As I indicated in my earlier posting....German POWs got what they deserved from the Soviets.
This statement by Delta3-2 violates the H&WC section rules on national insults:
Remarks containing insulting generalizations about nationalities, ethnic groups, societies or religious groups and practices are not permitted here. This includes remarks about collective responsibility.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.
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Delta3-2 -- Please read the section rules carefully before posting here again. Consider this message, and that at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 508#802508 as your warning.

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