Ukraine demands 'genocide' marked

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#46

Post by David Thompson » 01 Dec 2005, 18:58

Michael -- You wrote:
There is a strong possibility (albeit not a certainty) that Dr Tauger comes from an ethno-cultural background that traditionally has been prejudiced against Ukrainians.
and
However, it is legitimate to take into account the cultural background of persons making claims about historical events, for the purpose of assessing whether that background might incline that person to adopt one viewpoint rather than another.
Let's stick to arguing factual material here. The question under discussion is whether or not the famine in the Ukraine and elsewhere was deliberately worsened by communist officials. Suppositious or speculative claims about someone's possible ethno-cultural background tell the reader nothing about whether Dr. Tauger's writings are accurate. If there's something wrong with his arguments, state the defects plainly. If not, your remarks about the possible ethno-cultural background of Dr. Tauger are an irrelevant distraction from the main issue.

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#47

Post by michael mills » 02 Dec 2005, 05:57

Any unbiassed observer of the debate concerning the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33 will notice one very obvious phenomenon, namely that the defenders of the thesis that the famine was artificially and intentionally created for the purpose of crushing the Ukrainian peasantry as the basis of Ukrainian national identity are for the most part persons of Ukrainian origin, often scholars worling in research institutes set up by Ukrainian exile communities, eg the Institute of Ukrainian Studies at Edmonton, Canada, while those who oppose that thesis and maintain that the famine was a natural event not willed by the Soviet Government appear not to be of Ukrainian ethnicity, and that a number of them quite often appear to be of another ethnicity that has a history of conflict with the Ukrainian ethnicity.

That clearly observable phenomenon strongly suggests that the ethnic identity of many of the persons on the different sides of the debate played a significant role in determining which side they joined.

If my supposition is correct, it does not mean that the various items of data that the members of the opposing sides have adduced in support of their respective positions are illegitimate. Rather it means that their ethnic identity predisposed them to take one side in the debate rather than the other, and having taken that side, they sought data that supported their side and ignored or downplayed other data that did not support it.

Thus, the opponents of the thesis of an intended famine are able to show that indeed there was a decline in total grain production before the outbreak of the famine, but gnore the measures taken by the Soviet Government to target the famine against particular population groups and maximise the extent of the starvation within those groups.

By the same token, the Ukrainian proponents of the intentionality thesis probably go too far in their claims that Stalin was personally anti-Ukrainian and wanted to kill as many ethnic Ukrainians as possible, rather than using an adventitious decline in food production as a weapon against a political group that he saw as a potential threat to his own personal power.

The Ukrainian side, so it would appear, wants to portray itself as the long-standing victim of "Muscovite" oppression, and indeed of a form of racial prejudice on the part of the "Muscovites", which has elements of truth but is for the most part historically false. The other side seems to be motivated primarily by a desire to demonstrate that the Ukrainians were not victims of persecution but essentially a nation of perpetrators, contributing to the victimisation of the group to which many of the opponents of the Ukrainian side appear to belong.


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#48

Post by David Thompson » 02 Dec 2005, 07:47

Michael -- You wrote:
Rather it means that their ethnic identity predisposed them to take one side in the debate rather than the other, and having taken that side, they sought data that supported their side and ignored or downplayed other data that did not support it.
Our concern here is with ascertainable facts, and whether or not the various claims involved in discussing a question are accurate and verifiable. The goals and purposes of a research section of the forum are only served by directly addressing arguments and claims on their merits.

An argument cast in this form: "Remember that when my opponent criticizes British policy, that he is from an Australian ethno-cultural background which has a history of conflict with the British, and this ethnic identity may predispose him to seek data that supports 'his side' and ignore or downplay other data" is an example of the rhetorical tactic of "poisoning the well."
Exposition:
To poison the well is to commit a pre-emptive ad hominem strike against an argumentative opponent. As with regular ad hominems, the well may be poisoned in either an abusive or circumstantial way. For instance:

"Only an ignoramus would disagree with fluoridating water." (Abusive)
"My opponent is a dentist, so of course he will oppose the fluoridating of water, since he will lose business." (Circumstantial)

Anyone bold enough to enter a debate which begins with a well-poisoning either steps into an insult, or an attack upon one's personal integrity. As with standard ad hominems, the debate is likely to cease to be about its nominal topic and become a debate about the arguer. However, what sets Poisoning the Well apart from the standard Ad Hominem is the fact that the poisoning is done before the opponent has a chance to make a case.

Exposure:
Poisoning the Well is not, strictly speaking, a logical fallacy since it is not a type of argument. Rather, it is a logical boobytrap set by the poisoner to tempt the unwary audience into committing an ad hominem fallacy. As with all forms of the ad hominem, one should keep in mind that an argument can and must stand or fall on its own, regardless of who makes it.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/poiswell.html

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#49

Post by Karman » 02 Dec 2005, 17:18

nny wrote: I find the Russians half-assed apology especially amusing :
In 2003 Russia's ambassador to Ukraine, Viktor Chernomyrdin, was quoted by Interfax news agency dismissing talk of an apology or compensation, saying: "We're not going to apologise... there is nobody to apologise to."
can you imagine?! Amazing.
Viktor Chernomyrdin is the Russian Ambassador in Ukraine and has to explain the Russian position towards this subject every year. Every year the journalists ask him if Russia is going to apologize to Ukraine for the Great Famine and every year he is giving a similar answer: no.
His exact words at the press-conference held in Kiev in 2003 look like that in Russian:
«Извиняться мы не собираемся - нам не перед кем извиняться»,


If one means to do a word by word translation then he/she can translate them the way you quoted. But if one tries to explain the meaning of his sentence then he/she can translate his words as: "We are not going to appologise. Nobody has the right to blame us". (I hope that my Russian or Russian-speaking friends can give a better translation). Also Chernomyrdin added that the request for appologize may be addressed to Georgia since Stalin was Georgian.
Interesting but the news agency BBC Russian in its article about Golodomor did not give the exact quote of Chernomyrdin but interpreted his words in the manner similar to the sence of the article you quoted: "There is nobody to apologise to" http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/n ... 472556.stm

As for this discussion. Those who say that Stalin meant to destroy the Ukrainian peasants always ignore the fact that at the date of Golodomor the collectivization in Ukraine was complete and one can say that the class of independent Ukrainian farmers was already destroyed in the course of kollectivisation. The Great Famine stroke the new class of kolkhoze members Stalin wanted to establish.

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#50

Post by Dmitry » 02 Dec 2005, 17:43

Karman wrote:
«Èçâèíÿòüñÿ ìû íå ñîáèðàåìñÿ - íàì íå ïåðåä êåì èçâèíÿòüñÿ»,


If one means to do a word by word translation then he/she can translate them the way you quoted. But if one tries to explain the meaning of his sentence then he/she can translate his words as: "We are not going to appologise. Nobody has the right to blame us". (I hope that my Russian or Russian-speaking friends can give a better translation).
That Russian sentence does make sense.

I thought (judging by the English translation) that it was one of his clumsy phrases that are very common in his speeches but that Russian original is OK, indeed.

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#51

Post by michael mills » 04 Dec 2005, 03:10

Karman wrote:
As for this discussion. Those who say that Stalin meant to destroy the Ukrainian peasants always ignore the fact that at the date of Golodomor the collectivization in Ukraine was complete and one can say that the class of independent Ukrainian farmers was already destroyed in the course of kollectivisation. The Great Famine stroke the new class of kolkhoze members Stalin wanted to establish.
What Karman is ignoring, like all the publicists who concentrate only on the technical details of the size of the harvest in 1932 and the aggregate amount of food available for the population, is the fact that at the time the famine was occurring, Stalin had started the process of purging the leadership of the Ukrainian SSR of nationally-minded ethnic Ukrainian elements, and of wiping out most of the ethnic Ukrainian intelligentsia.

A strike against the Ukrainian peasantry, even though it was already collectivised, would assist his aim of crushing any autonomist movements in Ukraine by keeping the peasantry so preoccupied with sheer physical survival that it would not have either the strength or time to support such movements.

I believe it improbable that Stalin pre-planned the famine. I think it more likely that there was a genuine food shortage resulting from a reduction in the size of the harvest. But the course of events, when compared with the famine of the early 1920s, when the Bolshevik regime sought food aid from outside, from the United States and Norway, give strong grounds for the judgement that the Soviet Government intrumentalised whatever food shortage actually existed to create famine conditions among actual or potential oppositionist groups, including the Ukrainian SSR and in the North Caucasus region which had a large ethnic Ukrainian population and which had been claimed by Ukrainian nationalists as territory that should belong to an independent Ukrainian state.

At the time of the occurrence of the famine, the Red Army was organised along ethnic lines, with separate Ukrainian units headed by ethnic Ukrainian officers trained in new military academies established in the Ukrainian SSR, using Ukrainian. That ethnically-based organisation had been introduced during the period of "Ukrainisation" in the 1920s, when there had been a move to give a measure of autonomy to the various minority nationalities of the Soviet Union.

Stalin may have feared an uprising by Ukrainian units in response to his move against the ethnic Ukrainian leadership and intelligentsia. As it was, there was a mutiny by one of the Ukrainian units. The isolation of Ukraine by the closure of its borders to the RSFSR and Belorussia may have been part of a move to suppress any opposition to the crushing of the Ukrainian leadership, rather than specifically a measure to exacerbate the famine by preventing food getting into Ukraine. Whatever the case may be, the isolation certainly had that effect.

There is definitely a connection between Stalin's "de-ukrainisation" of the power structure in the Ukrainian SSR. As I have said previously, it may well be that Stalin did not pre-plan the famine or engineer the aggregate food shortage, but he certainly used the food shortage as a weapon by targeting its effects against ethnic Ukrainians.

The fact that the famine was used as a weapon against ethnic Ukrainians is demonstrated celarly by the 1939 census data, which show that the number of ethnic Ukrainians decreased by several millions, while the total population of the USSR increased, as did the ethnic Russian and ethnic Belorussian populations.

An even clearer demonstration of the effects of the famine on ethnic Ukrainians is given by a comparison of the ethnic Ukrainian and ethnic Jewish populations. In the early 1930s well over half the Jewish population of the USSR lived on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR, primarily in the towns and cities. Despite that, the census data show that the Jewish population was not affected by the famine at all, since its size did not decline, unlike the ethnic Ukrainian population which showed a large decrease. That comparison indicates the extent of the ethnic targeting of the effects of whatever food shortage existed in reality.

Here is a table showing the decline in the size of the ethnic Ukrainian population:
The magnitude of the demographic catastrophe suffered by the Ukrainians is all the more sharply brought into focus when we compare Soviet population figures from 1926 and 1939 for the three East Slavic nations and the USSR as a whole:

......................1926 population....... 1939 population.........% change

USSR...............147,027,900.............. 170,557,100.............. +15.7
Russians........... 77,791,100.............. 99,591,500.............. +28.0
Byelorussians..... 4,738,900................ 5,275,400.............. +11.3
Ukrainians........ 31,195,000.............. 28,111,000.............. -9.9 _90_


Comparison with the Byelorussians is particularly significant, since their purely political fate was very similar to that of the Ukrainians, they faced the same pressures to assimilate themselves to Russian nationality, but they did not go through the famine. Indeed, we have seen that until the famine the natural population growth for Ukrainians, although gradually declining, was significantly higher than the actual rate of Byelorussian population growth for the period.
The source of the table is here:

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1983/078320.shtml

Note that the article given at the above source was originally a paper presented at a confernece in Tel Aviv in June 1982, so the more relevant compariosn with the Jewish population of the USSR was omitted, for obvious reasons.

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#52

Post by Dmitry » 04 Dec 2005, 06:26

michael mills wrote: Here is a table showing the decline in the size of the ethnic Ukrainian population:
The magnitude of the demographic catastrophe suffered by the Ukrainians is all the more sharply brought into focus when we compare Soviet population figures from 1926 and 1939 for the three East Slavic nations and the USSR as a whole:

......................1926 population....... 1939 population.........% change

USSR...............147,027,900.............. 170,557,100.............. +15.7
Russians........... 77,791,100.............. 99,591,500.............. +28.0
Byelorussians..... 4,738,900................ 5,275,400.............. +11.3
Ukrainians........ 31,195,000.............. 28,111,000.............. -9.9 _90_


Comparison with the Byelorussians is particularly significant, since their purely political fate was very similar to that of the Ukrainians, they faced the same pressures to assimilate themselves to Russian nationality, but they did not go through the famine. Indeed, we have seen that until the famine the natural population growth for Ukrainians, although gradually declining, was significantly higher than the actual rate of Byelorussian population growth for the period.
The explanation for that 'decline' of Ukrainians and abnormal increase of Russians is that 1926 census in Ukraine was carried out in the peak of ukrainization policy (which was a part of korenization in the USSR as a whole) and millions of Russians were written down as Ukrainians that was corrected later in 1939. Also those two censuses are hard to compare for many other reasons. For example in 1926 there were counted 190 ethnic groups and in 1939 - only 62 ones. (1959 - 109, 1970 - 104, 1979- 100, 1989 - 128).
Last edited by Dmitry on 04 Dec 2005, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

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#53

Post by michael mills » 04 Dec 2005, 12:21

Why did the same process not occur with Belorussians?

After all, at the same time that there was a policy of "ukrainisation" there was also a policy of "belorussianisation".

Is there any documentary evidence that in the 1926 census ethnic Russians were falsely recorded as ethnic Ukrainians, or is it simply a surmise?

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#54

Post by Dmitry » 04 Dec 2005, 12:54

michael mills wrote:Why did the same process not occur with Belorussians?

After all, at the same time that there was a policy of "ukrainisation" there was also a policy of "belorussianisation".
Belorussian nationalism never could be compared with Ukrainian one.
michael mills wrote:Is there any documentary evidence that in the 1926 census ethnic Russians were falsely recorded as ethnic Ukrainians, or is it simply a surmise?
http://russian.kiev.ua/books/karevin/ru ... us05.shtml (in Russian)
In an article by Alexander Karevin about Ukrainization in 1920s he wrote that sensus staff in Ukraine and even in the South regions of RSFSR had special directives on that matter. The very term 'Ukrainian' as ethnic term was rather artificial at that time. Many people in the new Soviet Ukraine did not consider themselves Ukrainians. A significant portion of them called themselves Malorussians or just Russians. In 1939 there was no press from local authority and they had free hand to declare themselves of their own accord.

PS: I will try to find some else sources because Alexander Karevin is politolog, not historian although his article has explanatory notes.

For example he refers to "̳ðòîâ À.Â. Ñõ³äíà ìåæà óêðà¿íñüêî¿ ìîâè // Íà ìîâîçíàâ÷îìó ôðîíò³. Êí.1. Ê.,1931. – Ñ.104." and pointed at an interesting fact:

In the Donetsk okrug of Russian SFSR in 1920 census there were 2,5% Ukrainians. In 1926 (when sensus staff got special directives for Ukrainization) there were 63% Ukrainians.

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#55

Post by Askold » 05 Dec 2005, 01:04

Dmitry:

http://russian.kiev.ua/books/karevin/ru ... us05.shtml (in Russian)
In an article by Alexander Karevin about Ukrainization in 1920s he wrote that sensus staff in Ukraine and even in the South regions of RSFSR had special directives on that matter. The very term 'Ukrainian' as ethnic term was rather artificial at that time. Many people in the new Soviet Ukraine did not consider themselves Ukrainians. A significant portion of them called themselves Malorussians or just Russians. In 1939 there was no press from local authority and they had free hand to declare themselves of their own accord.

PS: I will try to find some else sources because Alexander Karevin is politolog, not historian although his article has explanatory notes.

- Please, don't pass out information from such BS sites as that one. This site hosts bunch of russian nazi-like shouvenists who are anti-Ukrainian and cry about demise of Soviet Union. Karelin is not taken seriously by any historians, he's a complete bafoon. Overall, I find it disquisting when bunch of russians trying to deny the existance of the ARTIFICIAL famine. It seems like you don't remember that millions of your own kind were murdered in the same way.

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#56

Post by michael mills » 05 Dec 2005, 02:16

Dmitry,

You have raised the issue of what distinguishes a "Ukrainian" from a "Russian", which as you know is highly contentious.

At one extreme are Russian nationalists who claim that the modern nation called "Ukrainian" is simply a branch of the Russian people, and its language merely a southern peasant dialect. In 1918 and the next dew years, there were Russians, both Bolshevik and anti-Bolshevik, who claimed the concept of a separate Ukrainian ethnicity was purely an invention of the German invaders who wished to separate the Ukrainian provinces from Russia.

At the other extreme there are Ukrainian nationalists who claim that a separate Ukrainian ethnicity and language, quite distinct from the Russian, existed since ancient times, and go so far as to assign the various East Slavic tribes listed in the "Povest' Vremennykh Let" to either "Proto-Ukrainians" or "Proto-Russians".

I have read writings by Ukrainian extremists which claim that the modern Russian people has no connection whatever with the early medieval Russ people who had their centree at Kyiv, but rather are the descendants of primitive Finno-Ugric tribes which adopted a bastardised form of the Russ language and culture, the purest form of which ,according to those writings, is represented by modern Ukrainian.

Both extremes are to be rejected as biassed. Nevertheless, in the 1897 census the Russian Imperial Government recognised the division of the Russian people into Velikorussian, Malorussian and Belorussian sub-groups, and in the returns for the Gubernii claimed as Ukrainian (Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Khar'kov, Ekaterinoslav, Kherson and Tavrida), Velikorussians and Malorussians were recorded separately.

One of the books I mentioned previously, "The Sovietisation of Ukraine 1917-1923", by Jurij Borys, included a chapter on the economy and demography of the Ukrainian gubernii prior to 1917. That chapter included a table showing the number of Ukrainians (= Malorussians), Russians and Jews in each of those gubernii in both the 1897 and the 1926 censi. The two sets of figures are not precisely comparable, since the 1926 census excluded the parts of Volhynia and Podolia that had been lost to Poland, but they are indicative.

Unfortunately I have returned that book to the ANU library, so I do not have the figures on hand now. But I recall that the figures showed an increase in both the ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian populations between 1897 and 1926, and that the increase for both groups was about the same, and comparable to the increase in the entire population of the territory comprising Ukraine. Only the Jewish population declined, owing to the massive emigration between 1897 and 1914.

If the number of Ukrainians had been falsified in the 1926 census by counting millions of Russians as Ukrainians, then that would have been reflected in an abnormally high increase in the number of Ukrainians between 1897 and 1926 (since we can be confident that the Imperial Russian Government would have had no reason to inflate the number of Malorussians). From memory, the figures adduced by Borys showed no such abnormal increase.

If I get the opportunity over the next few weeks, I will consult the book again to confrim what I have written above.

With regard to the number of Ukrainians recorded in the Donetsk oblast', comparisons are often difficult to make given the changes in administrative boundaries after 1917.

However, most of the present Donbass area was within the territory of the pre-1917 Ekaterinoslav Guberniia, for which Borys shows a clear Ukrainian majority in both 1897 and 1926, although there was also a large Russian population in that area, concentrated in the industrial centres. According to his figures, there was no apparent inflation of the size of the Ukrainian population in 1926.

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#57

Post by Dmitry » 05 Dec 2005, 09:37

Askold wrote:Please, don't pass out information from such BS sites as that one. This site hosts bunch of russian nazi-like shouvenists who are anti-Ukrainian and cry about demise of Soviet Union. Karelin is not taken seriously by any historians, he's a complete bafoon.

As I've noticed the site of Russian community in Ukraine is rather moderate. But of course it's from my point of view and as a Russian I could be not sensetive to some questions raised on the site that you as an Ukrainian consider as BS. The fact is that information about the Ukrainisation in 20s and the censuses is not widespread in the Russian part of Internet and naturally I could find it only there yet - on the site of Russian community in Ukraine. Sorry, I'm a bit lazy to go to library to search books on that matter. I'm sure they should have some specialized literature about it.
Askold wrote:Overall, I find it disquisting when bunch of russians trying to deny the existance of the ARTIFICIAL famine. It seems like you don't remember that millions of your own kind were murdered in the same way.
I do not deny the existance of the famine in the USSR in 1930s. I have a 3rd volume of "The Tragedy of the Soviet Village. Collectivization and Dekulakization. Documents and Materials. In 5 volumes. 1927-1939." that covered that period (1930-33) and I could't find there any evidence that it was intentional.

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#58

Post by Dmitry » 05 Dec 2005, 11:53

michael mills wrote:You have raised the issue of what distinguishes a "Ukrainian" from a "Russian", which as you know is highly contentious.

At one extreme are Russian nationalists who claim that the modern nation called "Ukrainian" is simply a branch of the Russian people, and its language merely a southern peasant dialect. In 1918 and the next dew years, there were Russians, both Bolshevik and anti-Bolshevik, who claimed the concept of a separate Ukrainian ethnicity was purely an invention of the German invaders who wished to separate the Ukrainian provinces from Russia.

At the other extreme there are Ukrainian nationalists who claim that a separate Ukrainian ethnicity and language, quite distinct from the Russian, existed since ancient times, and go so far as to assign the various East Slavic tribes listed in the "Povest' Vremennykh Let" to either "Proto-Ukrainians" or "Proto-Russians".

I have read writings by Ukrainian extremists which claim that the modern Russian people has no connection whatever with the early medieval Russ people who had their centree at Kyiv, but rather are the descendants of primitive Finno-Ugric tribes which adopted a bastardised form of the Russ language and culture, the purest form of which ,according to those writings, is represented by modern Ukrainian.
It well may be that todays Russians are half Finno-Ugric by blood. 'Russians' is not blood. 'Russians' is mindset, culture and language. The fact is that in those ancient times all branches of East Slavs identifyed themselves as Russians (Of course not in the modern sense because today Russian means Velikorussian only). As for claims that Ukrainian is a southern peasant dialect... there is a problem. I stand on a point that those languages (Russian, Belorussian and Malorussian/Ukrainian and some others like Rusins) separated from proto-Russian, but betwen definitely Russian and definitely Ukrainian there exists a large mass of people (many millions) who speaks mixed (on a defferent degree) languages. And it's hard to say if it's an Ukrainian or Russian dialects. If we go from West to East we see as if Ukrainian become less and less Ukrainian and more and more Russian until it become definetly Russian. And it was a problem in the censuses, the more so, as the term 'Ukrainain' was new and simple people had to re-identify themselves.
michael mills wrote:Both extremes are to be rejected as biassed. Nevertheless, in the 1897 census the Russian Imperial Government recognised the division of the Russian people into Velikorussian, Malorussian and Belorussian sub-groups, and in the returns for the Gubernii claimed as Ukrainian (Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Khar'kov, Ekaterinoslav, Kherson and Tavrida), Velikorussians and Malorussians were recorded separately.
That's correct. But Velikorossia and Malorussia were also geographical terms. Peoples could identify themselves by location. The majority was uneducated and had shadow knowledge about a concept of ethnicity.
(According to the 1897 census in European part of Russian Impire there lived 48,558,700 Velikorossians, 20,414,800 Malorossians, 5,823,000 Belorussians.)
michael mills wrote:One of the books I mentioned previously, "The Sovietisation of Ukraine 1917-1923", by Jurij Borys, included a chapter on the economy and demography of the Ukrainian gubernii prior to 1917. That chapter included a table showing the number of Ukrainians (= Malorussians), Russians and Jews in each of those gubernii in both the 1897 and the 1926 censi. The two sets of figures are not precisely comparable, since the 1926 census excluded the parts of Volhynia and Podolia that had been lost to Poland, but they are indicative.

Unfortunately I have returned that book to the ANU library, so I do not have the figures on hand now. But I recall that the figures showed an increase in both the ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian populations between 1897 and 1926, and that the increase for both groups was about the same, and comparable to the increase in the entire population of the territory comprising Ukraine. Only the Jewish population declined, owing to the massive emigration between 1897 and 1914.

If the number of Ukrainians had been falsified in the 1926 census by counting millions of Russians as Ukrainians, then that would have been reflected in an abnormally high increase in the number of Ukrainians between 1897 and 1926 (since we can be confident that the Imperial Russian Government would have had no reason to inflate the number of Malorussians). From memory, the figures adduced by Borys showed no such abnormal increase.
I don't think falsified is right word here. I'd say incorrect recorded because of widescale Ukrainization campaign and because all dialects that were not pure VelikoRussian were written down as Ukrainian.
michael mills wrote:If I get the opportunity over the next few weeks, I will consult the book again to confrim what I have written above.

With regard to the number of Ukrainians recorded in the Donetsk oblast', comparisons are often difficult to make given the changes in administrative boundaries after 1917.

However, most of the present Donbass area was within the territory of the pre-1917 Ekaterinoslav Guberniia, for which Borys shows a clear Ukrainian majority in both 1897 and 1926, although there was also a large Russian population in that area, concentrated in the industrial centres. According to his figures, there was no apparent inflation of the size of the Ukrainian population in 1926.
No, he meant Donetsk okrug in RSFSR (now it's part of Rostov-na-Donu oblast'), not Donetsk oblast in Ukraine.

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#59

Post by Karman » 05 Dec 2005, 13:38

michael mills wrote:Dmitry,

You have raised the issue of what distinguishes a "Ukrainian" from a "Russian", which as you know is highly contentious.

At one extreme are Russian nationalists who claim that the modern nation called "Ukrainian" is simply a branch of the Russian people, and its language merely a southern peasant dialect. In 1918 and the next dew years, there were Russians, both Bolshevik and anti-Bolshevik, who claimed the concept of a separate Ukrainian ethnicity was purely an invention of the German invaders who wished to separate the Ukrainian provinces from Russia.

At the other extreme there are Ukrainian nationalists who claim that a separate Ukrainian ethnicity and language, quite distinct from the Russian, existed since ancient times, and go so far as to assign the various East Slavic tribes listed in the "Povest' Vremennykh Let" to either "Proto-Ukrainians" or "Proto-Russians".

I have read writings by Ukrainian extremists which claim that the modern Russian people has no connection whatever with the early medieval Russ people who had their centree at Kyiv, but rather are the descendants of primitive Finno-Ugric tribes which adopted a bastardised form of the Russ language and culture, the purest form of which ,according to those writings, is represented by modern Ukrainian.

Both extremes are to be rejected as biassed. Nevertheless, in the 1897 census the Russian Imperial Government recognised the division of the Russian people into Velikorussian, Malorussian and Belorussian sub-groups, and in the returns for the Gubernii claimed as Ukrainian (Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Khar'kov, Ekaterinoslav, Kherson and Tavrida), Velikorussians and Malorussians were recorded separately.

One of the books I mentioned previously, "The Sovietisation of Ukraine 1917-1923", by Jurij Borys, included a chapter on the economy and demography of the Ukrainian gubernii prior to 1917. That chapter included a table showing the number of Ukrainians (= Malorussians), Russians and Jews in each of those gubernii in both the 1897 and the 1926 censi. The two sets of figures are not precisely comparable, since the 1926 census excluded the parts of Volhynia and Podolia that had been lost to Poland, but they are indicative.

Unfortunately I have returned that book to the ANU library, so I do not have the figures on hand now. But I recall that the figures showed an increase in both the ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian populations between 1897 and 1926, and that the increase for both groups was about the same, and comparable to the increase in the entire population of the territory comprising Ukraine. Only the Jewish population declined, owing to the massive emigration between 1897 and 1914.

If the number of Ukrainians had been falsified in the 1926 census by counting millions of Russians as Ukrainians, then that would have been reflected in an abnormally high increase in the number of Ukrainians between 1897 and 1926 (since we can be confident that the Imperial Russian Government would have had no reason to inflate the number of Malorussians). From memory, the figures adduced by Borys showed no such abnormal increase.

If I get the opportunity over the next few weeks, I will consult the book again to confrim what I have written above.

With regard to the number of Ukrainians recorded in the Donetsk oblast', comparisons are often difficult to make given the changes in administrative boundaries after 1917.

However, most of the present Donbass area was within the territory of the pre-1917 Ekaterinoslav Guberniia, for which Borys shows a clear Ukrainian majority in both 1897 and 1926, although there was also a large Russian population in that area, concentrated in the industrial centres. According to his figures, there was no apparent inflation of the size of the Ukrainian population in 1926.
Michael Mills, some remarks:
With regard "Russian" and "Ukrainian" projects. I should say that it is far from pure "Russian" or pure "Ukrainian" nationalism. The theory that three peoples (velikorosskiy, malorosskiy and belorusskiy) form one great Russian nation was not produced either by Russian nationalists or by Russian administrators. That is an old theory that was first announced in Ukraine namely in Lvov which for centuries was the center of Russian Orthodox culture in Ukraine. Then in the 17 th century that theory stating that Ukrainians, Belorussians and Russians form one Russian nation was developped in Synopsis of a Ukrainian philosopher Innokentiy Guisel who lived in Kiev. And after that the theory became popular in Russia - Lomonosov who referred to Guisel's Synopsis in his works. And in the 19th century the Ukrainian historian Maksimovich insisted that Ukrainians (basing on two dialects: Malorossiyskiy and Chervonorusskiy) together with Russians and Belorussians represent one great Russian Nation. The greatest Ukrainian writer Nikolai Gogol had similar believes. So it is far from the truth to say that Russian nationalists claim that Ukrainians are a branch of Russian people.

As of the Ukrainian nationalist movement. I do not deny the independence of the Ukrainian nation but it does not deny the fact that Polish and Austrian intrigue made a great contribution to the development of Ukrainian nationalism. As for the popularity of the Ukrainian nationalism among common people I would refer to the work of a Ukrainian historian Aleksey Miller who said that a Ukrainian nationalist Chikalenko once said that if two cars in a train that brought Ukrainian nationalists to the opening ceremony of Kotliarevskiy monument happened to explode in 1903 then the total Ukrainian nationalist movement would have been destroyed for decades or at all.

Given that Ukrainian national self-conciousnes did exist among most part of common Ukrainians in the beguinning of the 20th century it did not automatically mean their separatist or anti-Russian intentions. BTW even the members of the Ukrainian nationalist Kirillo-Mephodius Brotherhood in the middle of 19th century were ready to serve to Russian Tsars to protect Ukraine from Polish ambitions. The Russian nationalist monarchist party had the majority of supporters in Ukraine during the elections to the first Dumas.

As for the 1897 Census. Dmitriy already pointed out and I would like to add that the principle that laid in the basis of the 1897 census was regarding to Russian and Ukrainians to count the Russian Orthodox members (both nations in major parts) and people speaking in Velikorusskiy and Malorossiyskiy versions of ther Russian language.

The 1926 census included all Southern dialects of the Russian language into the Ukrainian one. So all cossacks to wit: Donskoy Cossacks, Kubanskiy Cossacks (for those the attribution of the word "Ukrainian" is true with regard to their origin), Terskiy Cossacks were listed as Ukrainians as well as all Russians up to the city of Volgograd (Tsaritsyn- Stalingrad). That principle made the numbers of Ukrainians in the 1926 census so big. You may dispute but the attitude of that population to the Ukrainian nationalist project has always been far from the sympathy.

As for Stalin's plans to destroy Ukrainian nationalism. I would not argue in this case. The question is how successful that politics of Ukrainization was in the Respublic. I always recall the "White Guard" written by great Ukrainian writer Mikhail Bulgakov about the introduction of the Ukrainian language to the military forces of Hetman Skoropadskiy. I strictly doubt that Stalin expected any public uprisings, revolts or other fights from the part of Ukrainians defending their Nationalist leaders. Do you know any examples?

Karman
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#60

Post by Karman » 05 Dec 2005, 18:08

michael mills wrote:Sergey Romanov posted the text of a telegram from Stalin to Kaganovich of 19 August 1932, in which Stalin proposed cutting the grain requisition from Ukraine by 30 million poods, and by 35-40 million in an extreme case.

He also posted the response from Kaganovich, confirming that he had informed the First Secretaru of the CP(b)U, Stanislav Kossior, of the proposal for a reduction of 40 million poods.

The question is whether that proposal was actually implemented.

Does Sergey Romanov have documentary evidence that the grain requisition from Ukraine was actually reduced, ie documents showing the number of poods to be requisitioned from Ukraine in the original plan, and a lower number of poods in a later plan, after Stalin's telegram.

In short, how many poods were actually pulled from the grain requisition for Ukraine?

Or was it only the hapless Kossior's pood that was pulled by Stalin and Kaganovich?
With regard to the number of poods requisitionned from Ukraine I refer to the article of V. Pikhorovich "O prichinakh i posldestviakh goloda na Ukraine v 1932 - 1933 gg" The author of the article refers the figures to the statistic review "Foreign Trade of USSR in 1918 - 1940" published in Moscow in 1960.
Here is the quote of my previous post:
Peasants supplied 393 million pud in 1930 and 395 million pud in 1931.
According to the joint Order of the Council of People Commissars and Central Committee of VKP(b) from July 6, 1932 the plan for the obligatory bread supplies was 356 million of pud (1 pud = 16 kilos) then it was changed for 267 million pud on November 1, 1932. In reality peasants supplied to the State 136 million pud only as of November 1, 1932 .

As for the export of bread. The statistics of the bread export is as follows:

1928 – 100 thousand tons of grain
1929 – 1,3 million tons,
1930 – 4,8 million tons
1931 – 5,2 million tons
1932 – 1,8 million tons
1933 – 1 million tons.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#773007

Ukrainian scholars describe the agricultural situation in Ukraine before collectivization as the paradize. Also I should say that the picture of the Ukrainian agriculture as it is prtrayed by Ukrainian scholars before collectivization is not correct. It is an evident fact that 2,5 million Ukrainians (14% of the population) left the country to colonize the Eastern provinces of the Russian Empirre early in 20th century. During and after the war many Ukrainians moved to cities and not thanks to good life in Ukrainian villages. 38,3% of peasant farms in Ukraine did not have any productive livestock, 31,5% did not have any sowing inventories, 20% did not have any cows in 1927.
(Голод 1932-1933 років на Україні: очима істориків, мовою документів, К. 1990, с.17 quoted from V. Pikhorovich "O prichinakh…”)
Last edited by Karman on 06 Dec 2005, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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