General Paavo Talvela

[Tuco]

In reading of his "work" he also seems to have been a rather agressive general. What do Finns feel about his leadership and actions?

[Topspeed]

He was chosen to be the liason officer between Finland and Nazi Germany by Mannerheim.

He dared to protest in Berlin about the handling of the civilians in the occupied territories during Barbarossa.

He was a professional soldier. Why he felt he had to go to Argentina after the war is unknown to me.

I think he was very capable leader in tough situations.

[Harri]

He was a professional soldier. Why he felt he had to go to Argentina after the war is unknown to me.

Actually Talvela had resigned from the regular service well before the WW II, so he was actually "evp" as we Finns say. Also after the war he returned back to civilian duties and most likely due to security reasons worked abroads.

Talvela was in the first course of the Finnish Military Academy in the mid 1920's. At that time all trainees were "classed" and Talvela was the best trainee or #1 in this course (Einar Wichmann [since 1936 Vihma] was #28 or the last fully accepted one). Talvela was above everyone else in theoretical and practical military issues. It is said that he could work well under pressure.

As a combat leader Talvela was rated better in offensive than in defence. Talvela didn't spare his troops and earned a reputation as "a killer of own soldiers" which was only partly true. Aggressive he was, and expected that same from his subordinates and troops. He was rated highly intelligent officer with strong opinions on his subordinates which led to a few serious argues. Once Talvela had formed his own opinion on someone that could not be changed anymore. But in good company with officers he liked everything worked well. Without doubt many division and regiment commanders feared of him and not without reason.

Strangely Talvela was "Mannerheim's man" (although Mannerheim was "Russian officer") but when he heard that Col. R. Lagus had earned the Mannerheim Cross #1 he commented that in a rather bitter way. Talvela received Mannerheim Cross #2 which was embarrassing to him because Lagus was his subordinate - and what was the worst: Swedish speaker.

[Kimmo]

He was a professional soldier. Why he felt he had to go to Argentina after the war is unknown to me.

Actually Talvela had resigned from the regular service well before the WW II, so he was actually "evp" as we Finns say. Also after the war he returned back to civilian duties and most likely due to security reasons worked abroads.

While reading the "Jatkosodan Pikkujättiläinen" there's a good writing about Talvela. He seems a rather interesting person, complex one I would say who according to the above book, didn't enjoy his stay in the military, as it was "boring" and full of "incompetent people", quoting his own words from his diary.

Why he left to Argentina after the war is that American buyers refused to buy cellulose from a man, who had been in Hitler's headquarters. So he didn't have much to do in Finland after the war. This is the impression I got from the book. One thing might have been also, that he seemed very active person and wanted challenges and adventures, something which working in a cellulose industry probably didn't offer too much after spending years in the front.

[Esa K]

when he heard that Col. R. Lagus had earned the Mannerheim Cross #1 he commented that in a rather bitter way. Talvela received Mannerheim Cross #2 which was embarrassing to him because Lagus was his subordinate - and what was the worst: Swedish speaker.

IIRC, think it´s mentioned in Käkeläs Lagus biography, Talvelas words went something like: "Ja se antoi ensimmäisen ristin ruotsalaisperkeleelle, mikä oli luvattu minulle Tolvajärven taisteluista" "He gave the first cross to the f***ing Swede, wich was promised to me for the battle of Tolvajärvi (in Winter War)." One of the reasons that Lagus was given the Mannerheim cross #1 is said to be that Mannerheim wanted to "punish" Talvela cause he had replaced a Division commander without his approval. And I think this also reflects Talvelas very aspiring (hmm.. is aspiring correct translation of: kunnianhimoinen) personality.

And, in some ways i think theres similarities in the personality of General Talvela and US General Patton, aspiring and very demanding, eager for speed in the actions and often with a personal agenda that not allways fitted their superiors.


regards

Esa K

[Tero]

By Esa K

(hmm.. is aspiring correct translation of: kunnianhimoinen) personality.

Ambitious is the "proper" translation.

The difference is IMO ambitious denotes strong will and willingness to fulfill your goals by whatever means necessary while aspiring denotes a more peaceful (Zen-like if you will) take on your goals Goals you aspire are not absolute.

[Kimmo]

One of the reasons that Lagus was given the Mannerheim cross #1 is said to be that Mannerheim wanted to "punish" Talvela cause he had replaced a Division commander without his approval.
Esa K

Talvela and that Division commander (Who's name I cannot now remember, started with B) never met again during the war and only years later, when the Division commander was having his last birthday party (He died shortly after the parties), Talvela visited him and the commander commented that: "Pitikö ton perkeleenkin nyt tulla tänne" (Why did that son of a bitch come here)

Talvela however greeted him and gave flowers after which he left from the party.

[Esa K]

and earned a reputation as "a killer of own soldiers" which was only partly true

Stenbäck, Nils-Erik: Farosignaler en finlädsk krigsanalytikers memoarer Helsinki 2000, or in Finnish: Stenbäck, Nils-Erik: Vaaran merkit suomalaisen sota-analyytikon muistelmat, Helsinki 2000 (titel translates to something like: Signs of danger - The memoirs of a Finnish war-analyst).

In above mentioned book Stenbäck, who during the war was a intelligence officer, writes short about his postwar neighbours, first Gen. Nenonen and then Gen. Talvela. About Talvela he mentions that he in his old days often was crying when he talked about the war and it´s cruelties, and especially the remorse he felt about that he had been so hard as a commander and been the reason for so many lifes that had gone due to it. But that was the old Talvela...

which was only partly true

Yes, I agree with this, cause the aggressive and rapid approach he had, and wanted his troops to have, may have spared moore lives than a slower and over cautious approach would have done.


Regards

Esa K

[Esa K]

And, two more notes in this thread that could be endless due to the complexity of the persons nature in question...

He was known as the "Kiljuva jalopeura" The braying, crying, roaring, screaming, shouting, squealing, yelling (dont know in this case wich of the words to use) lion.

It´s also interesting that president Kekkonen made a full three lion general of Talvela, a honour he refused to give to A. F Airo, what that then can indicate...?


Regards again

Esa K

[Esa K]

Talvela and that Division commander (Who's name I cannot now remember, started with B)

The division commander he replaced in 1941 was Colonel E. Koskimaa.
He whos name started with B, think you are reefering to the incidents in 1944. Lieut. gen. A. Blick who was commander of VI Army Corps and whos views differed from Talvela, who then was commander of the Olonets Group, how the withdrawn from the Olonets isthmus should be done.

And, once more in this thread, regards

Esa K

[Harri]

Talvela and that Division commander (Who's name I cannot now remember, started with B)

The division commander he replaced in 1941 was Colonel E. Koskimaa.

Actually it was Col. E. Koskimies (5.D).

He whos name started with B, think you are reefering to the incidents in 1944. Lieut. gen. A. Blick who was commander of VI Army Corps and whos views differed from Talvela, who then was commander of the Olonets Group, how the withdrawn from the Olonets isthmus should be done.

Blick was Major General. The incident was as follows in short: Talvela had given an order that troops are not allowed to withdraw. Blick opposed Talvela's order and instead gave an order of his own that troops are allowed to withdraw. Then he waited a moment and when troops had started moving to new positions he announced it to Talvela. As a result Blick was sent to Karelian Isthmus and took the command of 2.D (it was Blick's former division) while its former commander Maj.Gen. A.-E. Martola replaced him as commander of VI Army Corps.

Blick and Talvela were too similar persons while a diplomatic but still very qualified Martola could better adapt to Talvela's ideas and orders. Actually also Olonets Group was gradually suspended and parts of it became new HQ of the Commander of the Karelian Isthmus (KaJoKE). Talvela was again sent to "special duties".

[Esa K]

...of course it was

Col. E. Koskimies

...have beeen reading to much M. Koskimaa lately, so...

and of course

Blick was Major General.

...cause it was Talvela who was Lieut Gen...

...looks like theres no need for Champagne for me tomorrow...

Thanks Harri for correcting me...

..and to all at this forum:

Happy New Year!


Esa K

[Harri]

You are welcome Esa. It seems we all have our own "bad moments"... :roll:

...looks like theres no need for Champagne for me tomorrow...

I think you in turn need some more....

----

Happy New Year everybody!

[Hanski]

Winter has arrived again at Helsinki, with its shroud of fresh snow. Infantry General Paavo Talvela and his wife have their final resting site under this boulder, brought from the battle grounds of Oinassalmi in Ilomantsi to this small cemetery on Leposaari island near the suburb of Kulosaari. His surname, taken in 1905, is derived from the Finnish word talvi (= winter), so this season is also right for presenting the tomb of the Knight of Mannerheim Cross N:o 2.