Jewish Hymn

[Kim Sung]

As you see in the last cut of the above comic, Colonel Willis Everett Jr., an American lawyer from Georgia spent 40,000 dollars and ten years in defending Peiper. It was his own money that Colonel Everett spent to bring that Jewish Rabbi from Israel!

It is shown how Lt. Col. Willis Everett, the defense counsel, did his own research. Everett went to La Gleize, Stoumont, Bullingen and other Belgian towns. He spoke to villagers, Mayors and Priests of these villages and found that most allegations were false. Everett also interviewed former U.S. prisoners, including a Major Hal McCown (captured in the LaGleize-Stoumont area), and the story that he received was an entirely different one. The reason that almost all sentences were commuted was because it was found that most allegations were false.

UNCONVENTIONAL ALLIES: COLONEL WILLIS EVERETT AND SS-OBERSTURMBANNFUEHRER JOACHIM PEIPER

Moreover, Everett was deeply impressed by Joachim Peiper. He may not have been aware of Peiper's close association with Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler and all that that implied. To him, Peiper was simply a brave and capable commander whose spectacular military career the desk-bound Everett probably envied and admired. Having had the misfortune to be on the losing side, he was now a convenient scapegoat for the victors. Furthermore, Peiper could communicate with Everett in English, which he spoke and wrote in a stilted but often dramatic manner.

[Panzerfaust XxX]

So gentlemen what is Peiper? A hero? or a war criminal?

[David Thompson]

Kim Sung -- Where did your quote from Wolfkin come from? It's not in this thread.

You also claimed:

It was his own money that Colonel Everett spent to bring that Jewish Rabbi from Israel!

(1) We still haven't seen if there was a Jewish rabbi brought from Israel or anywhere else to testify for Peiper, much less that Everett paid for the trip.

(2) If the incident is supposed to have taken place at the Malmedy trial in Dachau during 1946, Everett would not have had to spend his own money because the US government was footing the bill. How a Jewish rabbi's testimony would be relevant to charges involving the murder of US POWs in Belgium in late 1944 also remains to be established.

(3) If the incident is supposed to have taken place when Peiper was under investigation in 1968 by the West German government for the shelling of Boves, according to your link Everett had been dead for eight years.

Panzerfaust XxX -- The subject of this thread is the claimed action of Peiper in saving Jewish lives in Italy. We already have a number of open threads on your question:

So gentlemen what is Peiper? A hero? or a war criminal?

In addition, the use of the conjunction "or" in your question erroneously suggests that Peiper must be one or the other (a hero or a war criminal), whereas there are numerous examples in history of heroes who were also criminals.

BAUGNEZ (Malmedy) once more (Peiper)...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=280
Was the Malmedy massacre planned?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25613
Malmedy massacre
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23296
My first post is a question about Malmedy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=13824
Malmedy massacre
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=11445
Malmedy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5825
Malmedy - Once again
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=35729
Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres once again
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=32364
LSSAH war crimes 1939-1945
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34630

[jeweste]

Please Mr. Sung,
please stop to spread around this totally untrue story and the myth about the Jewish people rescued by Peiper, even if you have found it in a comic. And by quoting Prof. James J. Weingartner´s book: A preculiar Crusade. Willis M. Everett and the Malmedy Massacre, I can not find there a proof of the Jewish Rabbi story in the whole book. This quotes are Weingartners evaluation about the opinion of Everett, but not the opinion of Weingartner. I do think, Weingartner has a clear idea in his books, f.e. Crossroads of Death and Hitler´s Guard, about war crimes of Peiper and the LAH. The book "A precular crusade" gives a perfect view about Everett´s intention, but, even Everett was totally sure, that most of the defendants were guilty. For Peiper, why not quote the pages 92 and 93?
Danny S. Parker checked all statements during the Malmedy Case, there too, not a single word of the Rabbi story.
The Rabbi story, as far as I could reconstruct it, was brought up by Joachim Peiper himself, when he was interviewed by Charles Whiting for Massacre at Malmedy. He duped him with this story, as he duped him with the story of his apolitical entry to the SS and his NSDAP Membership, creating a pure soldier story, like the Hiag apology "soldiers like others". But Whiting has no notes of the interview left. Peiper was smart enough not to use this story for his old comrads like Rudi Lehmann or other vets. But I have to admit, that I was duped with this story for a long time, too as I was duped with the ss buffer picture of a keen Peiper, created by apologists E.G. Krätschmer, Ziemssen, Greil, Lehmann.
As forum member c.g. showed and prooved, Jewish people were arrested in Italia in the AoR of Peiper, probably with the help of Peipers battailon. There were even Jews from Berlin among them, but they were not rescued, but gassed in Ausschwitz.
cheers jens

[Kim Sung]

Kim Sung -- Where did your quote from Wolfkin come from? It's not in this thread.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ght=487497

You also claimed:

It was his own money that Colonel Everett spent to bring that Jewish Rabbi from Israel!

(1) We still haven't seen if there was a Jewish rabbi brought from Israel or anywhere else to testify for Peiper, much less that Everett paid for the trip.
This was taken from the last cut of the above comic, which is quite questionable.

(2) If the incident is supposed to have taken place at the Malmedy trial in Dachau during 1946, Everett would not have had to spend his own money because the US government was footing the bill. How a Jewish rabbi's testimony would be relevant to charges involving the murder of US POWs in Belgium in late 1944 also remains to be established.

But, I also doubt that the US government was so generous to spend money to bring just a subsidiary testifier who has no relation to the Malmedy massacre.

I think that, if the Jewish Rabbi really came from Israel to Dachau for testimony, the inviter's intention might be to give the Jewish judge the impression that he did something good during the war, diluting the image of a fierce warrior.

[Kim Sung]

Please Mr. Sung

My family name is Kim, based on the same system with Hungarian names

The Rabbi story, as far as I could reconstruct it, was brought up by Joachim Peiper himself, when he was interviewed by Charles Whiting for Massacre at Malmedy. He duped him with this story, as he duped him with the story of his apolitical entry to the SS and his NSDAP Membership, creating a pure soldier story, like the Hiag apology "soldiers like others". But Whiting has no notes of the interview left. Peiper was smart enough not to use this story for his old comrads like Rudi Lehmann or other vets.

Do you mean that Peiper fabricated the whole story? For what purpose would he do that after he already got acquitted from trials?

[David Thompson]

Kim Sung -- You wrote:

For what purpose would he do that after he already got acquitted from trials?

Please try to keep to the facts. Peiper wasn't acquitted. He spent ten years in prison because he was convicted at the US Malmedy trial and sentenced to death by hanging. His sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, and he was later released. He wasn't acquitted of the Italian charges in 1968 because there was no trial. The German state prosecutor's office declined prosecution because in their opinion, there was insufficient evidence to take the case to trial. The German government refused the Italian government's request to extradite Peiper for trial in Italy.

From my notes:

Peiper, Joachim or Jochen (30.1.1915-14.7.1976) [SS-Standartenfűhrer] -- SS: 132496; commander, 1st SS Panzer Regiment of the 1st SS Panzer Division "Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler" 1944-1945 [Knights Cross; Oakleaves; Swords] {arrested by American troops 18 Aug 1945 (NYT 19 Aug 1945:1:1); impending trial announced by American authorities 8 Feb 1946 (NYT 9 Feb 1946:7:3; LT 21 May 1946:3c); convicted (LT 12 Jul 1946:3c); sentenced to death by a US military tribunal at Dachau 16 Jul 1946 for war crimes arising out of the executions by the unit under his command of American Prisoners of war and civilians in the area around Malmedy, Belgium, in December, 1944 (LT 17 Jul 1946:4f; Marcus Wendel and Dean Robson, "Malmedy Massacre Trial" at http//www.skalman.nu/third-reich/warcrimes-trials-malmedy.htm; Third Reich Forum posts at http//keywest.dnsvault.com/~forum3rd/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6865; "Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... 0start.htm; Case No. 6-24 [US vs. Valentin Bersin et al]); sentence commuted 31 Jan 1951 to life imprisonment by General Thomas T. Handy, US armed forces commander in Europe (NYT 1 Feb 1951:1:2); release contemplated 22 Dec 1955 (NYT 23 Dec 1955:2:7); released from American custody at Landsberg-am-Lech prison 22 Dec 1956 (NYT 23 Dec 1956:8:1); accused by Italian authorities Dec 1968 of having committed a war crime in connection with the shelling of Boves, Italy in September 1944; case dismissed Feb 1969 by a West German court at Stuttgart for insufficient evidence (The Devil's Adjutant, pp. 30-31, 260); moved to France 1969; murdered in a gun battle with unknown assailants at his home in Traves, France 13-14 Jul 1976 (NYT 18 Jul 1976:12:1). A group known as "The Avengers" had previously threatened to kill Peiper if he did not leave Traves (Secrets of the SS 1-12; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 696-7; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 130-1; Malmedy Massacre pps. 107-152; ABR-SS; Dienstaltersliste der Waffen-SS [1 Jul 1944]).}

[snookie]

So gentlemen what is Peiper? A hero? or a war criminal?

a murder victim

[alf]

So gentlemen what is Peiper? A hero? or a war criminal?

Obviously from this thread he is a cartoon comic character. Wow, I didnt realise as I was growing up all my commando comics were actual historical documents, silly me.

[AdolfDettmer]

Wow..

Is this a serious quote..

a murder victim

Clearly a War Criminal first and then a victim of retribution, which in all honesty, he deserved for the murder of those American POW's.

[Dimitrii]

Wow..

Is this a serious quote..

a murder victim

Clearly a War Criminal first and then a victim of retribution, which in all honesty, he deserved for the murder of those American POW's.

Don't you think you're pushing it too far with a disgusting opinion like that?

[snookie]

Wow..

Is this a serious quote..

a murder victim

Clearly a War Criminal first and then a victim of retribution, which in all honesty, he deserved for the murder of those American POW's.

Now I can ask the question, is this a serious quote?

(a) He was convicted and sentenced to death (by a confession obtained by "dubious" means if you believe 90% of his peers ALSO whom signed confessions under the same circumstances)

(b) It was never prioven that he issued any order to kill anyone

(c) nor was was it ever shown that he was even in the area when the crime happened


He was as guilty as Meyer, Dietrich and Skorzeny were...take that for whatever you will.


Now if we are going to be fair here, are we going to go burn down and shoot all the US Soldiers who may have sought some Payback post Malmedy...if so, I'll let you start pulling the trigger first.

In every case Pieper was either let go, exonerated or just the cases dropped because of lack of evidence...which in my book does not equal a war criminal.

[David Thompson]

Dmitrii -- Unless you have some facts to add to the discussion, we're not really interested in your fact free characterizations. See the excerpts from the H&WC section rules below.

snookie -- You wrote:

Now I can ask the question, is this a serious quote?

(a) He was convicted and sentenced to death (by a confession obtained by "dubious" means if you believe 90% of his peers ALSO whom signed confessions under the same circumstances)

(b) It was never prioven that he issued any order to kill anyone

(c) nor was was it ever shown that he was even in the area when the crime happened

He was as guilty as Meyer, Dietrich and Skorzeny were...take that for whatever you will.

Now if we are going to be fair here, are we going to go burn down and shoot all the US Soldiers who may have sought some Payback post Malmedy...if so, I'll let you start pulling the trigger first.

In every case Pieper was either let go, exonerated or just the cases dropped because of lack of evidence...which in my book does not equal a war criminal.

(1) As I pointed out above, the topic of this thread is Peiper's actions in Italy, not the Malmedy conviction. We already have a large number of open threads on that subject, and you are invited to post your sourced comments there.

(2) The evidence on Peiper's guilt in the Malmedy massacre of POWs is reviewed here:

BAUGNEZ (Malmedy) once more (Peiper)...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=280
Was the Malmedy massacre planned?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25613
Malmedy massacre
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23296
My first post is a question about Malmedy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=13824
Malmedy massacre
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=11445
Malmedy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5825
Malmedy - Once again
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=35729
Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres once again
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=32364
LSSAH war crimes 1939-1945
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34630
Were Kurt Meyer and Jochen Peiper Guilty?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46978

(3) The evidence against Kurt "Panzer" Meyer is reviewed at:

The crimes of Kurt "Panzer" Meyer
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=32709
Were Kurt Meyer and Jochen Peiper Guilty?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46978

(4) The evidence against Josef "Sepp" Dietrich is reviewed at:
How much was Sepp Dietrich really guilty of?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24329

(5) Skorzeny was acquitted by an American military tribunal, so there's not much point in talking about his being "guilty."

Was Otto Skorzeny a war criminal?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46989

(6) We have a rule requiring sources for factual claims. Please comply with it in the future:

2. Claims and Proof

The fifth rule of the forum is: "When quoting from a book or site, please provide info on the source (and a link if it is a website)."

If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

A general reference to a website, or a book without page references; citations or links to racist websites; generalized citations to book reviews; and citations to unsourced articles.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

Further unsourced and off-topic opinion posts in this thread will be deleted without further warning.

[snookie]

Dmitrii -- Unless you have some facts to add to the discussion, we're not really interested in your fact free characterizations.

Point #1
I do not think most people are interested in hearing folks here state that ANYONE "deserves to be murdered"...

Why not use your cut and paste talents to reprimand that individual.

Point #2
Just because there are threads here w/individuals of varying degrees of knowledge coming down firmly on the allied side (as opposed to even looking at other, less allied flattering information) does not prove guilt, nor does it garantee logic by the posters. In the case of Meyer, he was sentenced to death and let go once facts about his conviction and how the allies obtained it were found out...the same w/Pieper...the reason I brought him up. I mentioned Skorzeny because he too was motre than likely WRONGLY held, for several years before he eventually he walked away. Another similarity.

If indeed Pieper was "Guilty" of anything resembling a real warcrime he'd have had his neck stretched long before he was MURDERED in France.

[David Thompson]

snookie -- The forum and section rules are posted at H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

I don't propose to bicker with you about them. You can comply with them, or you can post somewhere else.