Röhm's homosexuality

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Roderick
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Röhm's homosexuality

#1

Post by Roderick » 29 Aug 2006, 18:45

I have doubts about this subject concerning Röhm:

1º) There was a German Criminal Code that time: it said homosexual acts between males was a CRIME.
So why he was not punished?

2º) When Ernst Röhm began his homosexual activities? Before World War One?

3º) He was an active or passive partner in his homosexual acts?

regards,

Roderick
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Denim Demon
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#2

Post by Denim Demon » 29 Aug 2006, 21:06

He was an active or passive partner in his homosexual acts?

why on earth do you want to know? does it have any historical relevance?


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kahlo
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#3

Post by kahlo » 29 Aug 2006, 21:40

His family protested that the homosexaulity charge was trumped up.

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R.M. Schultz
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Re: Röhm's homosexuality

#4

Post by R.M. Schultz » 29 Aug 2006, 23:24

Roderick wrote:1º) There was a German Criminal Code that time: it said homosexual acts between males was a CRIME.
So why he was not punished?
Paragraph 175 of the German penal code dating back to 1871 made sodomy (specifically anal intercourse) illegal but not other forms of homoerotic activity (mutual masturbation, felatio, frottage, etc.), so it was almost always a plausible defense that two homosexuals had engaged in these, technically legal, activities. Though Röhm was arrested several times for homosexual activities, the difficulty of proving actual sodomy probably saved him from any conviction.
Roderick wrote:I2º) When Ernst Röhm began his homosexual activities? Before World War One?
Before the war, Röhm’s sexual experiences were probably limited to women. He confesses in his memoirs to having got gonorrhea from prostitutes on a number of occasions before the war. The most reliable accounts indicate that Röhm was introduced to homoeroticism after the war, during his Freikorps days, probably about 1923 and possibly by Gerhard Rößbach, though possibly by Rößbach’s lover, Edmund Heines.

Roderick wrote:3º) He was an active or passive partner in his homosexual acts?
Röhm was a dominant personality type and thus, in his mature sexual relationships, he played the role of Top though this was more fluid than one might expect. Probably, in his initiation into homoeroticism, he played Bottom to that Über-Top, Gerhard Roßbach. Then, in his early homoerotic relationships with Heines and Röhrbein (and perhaps von Helldorf), they were “fuck-buddies,” that is, because they were secure in their dominant identities and acknowledged the other’s natural dominance, they were able to swap roles freely without this undermining their self-image as Tops. The later relationships with Schätzl, Du Moulin Eckart, and Spretti are clearly ones where Röhm dominates outright, while he probably only dominated Karl Ernst because of his age and position.
Denim Demon wrote:He was an active or passive partner in his homosexual acts?

why on earth do you want to know? does it have any historical relevance?
Wouldn't such knowledge be an absolutely fundamental insight into his character? Does it not mean everything that the solid Gregor Strasser was happily married? Or that both Mussolini and Goebbels, two men eager to prove their masculinity and of mercurial bent, were compulsive philanderers? Doesn’t it make sense that crusty old von Epp was a bachelor? Or that the effete Himmler was marred to a woman larger, stronger, and older than he, and had only one daughter? And what of the Führer’s twisted sex life — isn ‘t that what you would expect?

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#5

Post by Denim Demon » 30 Aug 2006, 12:20

R.M. Schultz wrote: "Wouldn't such knowledge be an absolutely fundamental insight into his character? Does it not mean everything that the solid Gregor Strasser was happily married? Or that both Mussolini and Goebbels, two men eager to prove their masculinity and of mercurial bent, were compulsive philanderers? Doesn’t it make sense that crusty old von Epp was a bachelor? Or that the effete Himmler was marred to a woman larger, stronger, and older than he, and had only one daughter? And what of the Führer’s twisted sex life — isn ‘t that what you would expect?"

absolutely for an psycologist, but I believe that their actions speek for themselves. the efforts that are popular now to kind of psycoanalize famous/infamous historic persons on their personal life (sex life) and thereby come to an conclution about why they did the things they did is unvalid. its mostly trivila and doesnt explane why these persons behaved as they did, however i do agree that its part of their personality discription. that Himmler was married to a woman lager than him does not make it nessesary for him to compensate that fact by hating and killing jews. the political environment of the interwar era and the third reich does.
regards
dd

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#6

Post by SteveFBS » 30 Aug 2006, 23:40

EVERYTHING matters when analyzing someone's history/personality. I think Roderick was smart to ask these questions since an answer could definately provide some insight into the character of Röhm...there generally exists a duality in many people that can show itself in passive/dominant traits and I think it's interesting to try to sort these characteristics out to ATTEMPT to delve a bit deeper into the subject's psyche. Keep up the good work, everyone!
-Steven

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#7

Post by Denim Demon » 01 Sep 2006, 01:15

perhaps Im mistaken Mr sstcb, however I cant see the historic relevance to the question if Ernst Rohm gave or took ass.
What would it explane, which riddels would it solve?

regards
dd

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#8

Post by SteveFBS » 01 Sep 2006, 01:37

It doesn't explain any "riddles" as you call them, Denim Demon, but I think it does offer a bit of insight into the man's personality...either dominant or submissive. This man was a very good organizer during his time with the SA, which would require the ability to impose his will upon underlings. I think Roderick was delving into this aspect of ER's personality. When discussing historical characters it can be interesting to try to probe their motivations, be those motivations sexual, greed based, or whatever. Either way I think it can be of interest to some people...perhaps not to yourself. I did not start this thread, I was only commenting on the validity of the questions posed, and since this is something I had not considered before I thought that the initial question was a good one.
Best wishes to all!
-Steven S.

Roderick
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#9

Post by Roderick » 09 Sep 2006, 01:16

sstcb wrote: I was only commenting on the validity of the questions posed.

Steven S.
In fact, this was my purpose, Steven S.
Only to analyze the personality of a strange and unique Bull of War like Röhm, chief of an important Nazi organization, who fell in a life of depravity.

Ernst was a good boy...When he was asleep.

Roderick

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#10

Post by Matt » 09 Sep 2006, 05:07

Rohm was a very interesting character.

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R.M. Schultz
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#11

Post by R.M. Schultz » 10 Sep 2006, 05:57

Denim Demon wrote:perhaps Im mistaken Mr sstcb, however I cant see the historic relevance to the question if Ernst Rohm gave or took ass. What would it explane, which riddels would it solve?
Before you even begin to think about this, throw out all notions of “Gay” and “Straight” because these are mere Bourgeois proprieties that will only complicate the issue. The current agitprop of the “Gay Community” would have us believe that “Gay” is something innate (like blue eyes) when in fact it is more a matter that ranges from disposition (like left-handedness) to circumstance and experience (like a taste for curry) that becomes a matter of mere preference.

The real matter at issue here is dominance, a matter of “Top” and “Bottom.” About 15 to 20% of persons are naturally dominant, while only one in twenty is an actual leader. A person’s sexuality is fixed in inverse proportion to their dominance. Thus, a passive personality type is likely to conceive of themselves as being “born” gay or straight, as this is a matter of disposition and they will lack the will to chose their sexuality. Conversely, a dominant type is more likely to put on and take off sexual roles as the situation demands, a matter of preference. In heterosexual relationships the Top role ordinarily falls to the male (since even between matched men and women the man enjoys a certain natural aggressiveness that gives him enough of an edge to hold this role) and if it does not, then the relationship usually becomes dysfunctional in some way. In homosexual relationships, if there is a naturally dominant person, then he takes that role, if there is a difference in the power relationship (age, size, social position) then this might influence who takes this role, and if there is no natural dominance then there is usually a tacit agreement to alternate this role (the role of Top being undesirable if you are naturally passive). As Tops are out-numbered by Bottoms by about five-to-one, a Top can pretty much write his own ticket in the Gay world.

Röhm was a dominant personality type, a Top, and this had everything to do with how he dealt with matters. While bottoms like Himmler were passive-aggressive, Röhm was always straight-forward and above board.

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#12

Post by Denim Demon » 10 Sep 2006, 22:48

This is all very interesting R.M. Schultz, however I dont believe that anyone who has read a little about Rohm believes that he wasnt a very dominant personality, but that doesnt have to apply to sexual situations or whatever. His actions lagerly speek for themselves regardless of his sexual habits. And how are one to know his preferance and again, what on earth would it answer?

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Big Orange
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#13

Post by Big Orange » 14 Sep 2006, 16:23

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Denim Demon wrote:perhaps Im mistaken Mr sstcb, however I cant see the historic relevance to the question if Ernst Rohm gave or took ass. What would it explane, which riddels would it solve?
Before you even begin to think about this, throw out all notions of “Gay” and “Straight” because these are mere Bourgeois proprieties that will only complicate the issue. The current agitprop of the “Gay Community” would have us believe that “Gay” is something innate (like blue eyes) when in fact it is more a matter that ranges from disposition (like left-handedness) to circumstance and experience (like a taste for curry) that becomes a matter of mere preference.
But people are born left or right handed and have no choice in the matter. Being left handed is very innate and is not merely a diposition, but sexual orientation is of course a different matter entirely; it is hard to tell if homosexuality is some kind of genetic "defect" or it stems from upbringing (nature vs. nurture). But either way, who cares if Rohm was homosexual? He was a Nazi, bully and thug, but what baring does his sex life have on what an awful person he was?

There were pleanty of SS/SA officers and Nazi Party officials who were had a "normal" sex life, but were still criminals.

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#14

Post by R.M. Schultz » 14 Sep 2006, 19:19

Big Orange wrote:But people are born left or right handed and have no choice in the matter. Being left handed is very innate and is not merely a diposition ...
I think my analogy holds. Whereas people have an innate disposition for both handedness and sexuality, these things do respond to conscious training and intention. My father, a lefty, was taught to shoot right handed in the Marine Corps and became completely proficient that way. Röhm functioned perfectly well as an heterosexual before the Great War and an Homosexual afterwards. It has become common to the point of cliché that nowadays so many college lesbians straighten up after graduation that there is a slag tearm for it: L.U.G., “lesbian until graduation.”
Big Orange wrote:But either way, who cares if Rohm was homosexual?
Well, it certainly gave Hitler an excuse to purge him, didn’t it?
Big Orange wrote:He was a Nazi, bully and thug, but what baring does his sex life have on what an awful person he was?
[quote="Robert Henry Frank, "Hitler and the National Socialist Coalition, 1924 - 1932," Thesis - Johns Hopkins University, 1969, University Microfilms International, Ann Arbor, Michigan, p. 400-401."]Although he was publicly one of the most notorious of Nazis, Ernst Röhm was personally one of the most attractive. Men like Hermann Rauschning and Rudolf Diels, who had little in common with Röhm and actually opposed him on many issues, respected him as an individual. Indeed, the Stabschef SA was perhaps the only Nazi leader who was genuinely likeable. Sefton Delmer, the Berlin correspondent of the London Daily Express, was shocked by Röhm’s murder in 1934 because he “had liked this gay and expansive old gangster despite his thuggery and his outrageous private life.” Numerous Altkämpfter felt the same way about Röhm and, more surprisingly, many of the NSDAP’s political opponents found good words for him. The National Bolshevik Ernst Niekisch wrote that Röhm’s “spiritual sensitivity and straightforward character, although on the whole not much above average, nevertheless made him far superior to the rest of the Nazi leaders. Even the Communist Kurt Tucholsky defended him, saying that “decent men attack their enemies in the street, not in the bedroom!”[/quote]

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#15

Post by Big Orange » 16 Sep 2006, 00:56

Hmmmm, Ernst Rohm may have been a relatively decent man for a Nazi, but he was still a Nazi that helped one of the worst regimes in history to crush political opposition and seize power. And while Ernst Rohm's anti-Semitism was nowhere near as strong as his Nazi peers (as far as I know), after his death his SA troops where the Nazi thugs that smashed Jewish businesses and brutalised innocent people during Crystal Night. And during the 1930s, I imagine people said fairly positive things about the seemingly bright, hardworking and quiet Heinrich Himmler as well (and look what shit he did during the 1940s).

And I stopped putting much stock into many of your opinions a long time ago, R.M. Schultz; so what if you can train a naturally left-handed man to use his right-hand? A person who is naturally hetrosexual can "turn" homosexual if brought up in single sex enviroments (like youth prisons or boarding school). But left-handed people are still born left-handed (which points to it to being innate) and the majority homosexuals are still essentially born homosexual. I knew a gay friend who seemed homosexual long before he hit his mid-teens, so that points to homosexuality being innate, even though the cause and nature of it is still pretty ambiguous and not set in stone.

But I can't get into yet another convoluted argument with you again after you hypocritically stated that Alan Turin was justifiably convicted under the now obsolete anti-sodomy laws. He was needlessly punished for his private sex life and banished by the British state, even though he was a brilliant man who was a tremendous asset to wartime code breaking and was one of the founding minds behind the modern computer. And worse still you played down the suffering of homosexuals during the Holocaust.

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