I would like to receive information on Taras Bulba (real name of Maksym Borowec) who was one of the few Ukrainians who refused to take part in mass murders against Poles. He wrote even letters to other Ukrainian leaders and protested against their policy of extermination. He paid for it with death of his wife killed by his political opponents.
Polish literature on Wolun is full of examples of cruelty, I think that one should also to collect examples of Ukrainians who helped Poles?
Taras Bulba - Maksym Borowec - Ukrainian hero
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David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
RG:
Where should I begin with this faulty statement..........?
- You make it sound as the solde idea of Ukrainians was to plot a mass murder against Poles
Now on to Bulba's relations with the Poles. In his memuars "Armija bez derzhavy" he wrote that he tried to establish joint efforts against the communists but :
Otaman Taras Bulba-Borovets "An Army Without a State - Glory and Tragedy of Ukrainian Insurrection Movement". Memoirs, published by Society of Volyn, Winnipeg, 1981. pg. 244.
P.S. Some info on him in English:
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm
Where should I begin with this faulty statement..........?
.I would like to receive information on Taras Bulba (real name of Maksym Borowec) who was one of the few Ukrainians who refused to take part in mass murders against Poles
- You make it sound as the solde idea of Ukrainians was to plot a mass murder against Poles
- His was was killed as result of internal conflict, when the Bandera faction took over the control of UPA. I have to admitt the control was taken over and rulled with an iron hand as as result those in opposing factions encountered losses.He wrote even letters to other Ukrainian leaders and protested against their policy of extermination. He paid for it with death of his wife killed by his political opponents.
- What if I paraphrase you and write that "Ukrainian literature on Poles is full of examples of cruelty, but I think I should collect info on Poles who helped Ukrainians"? Sounds much better and not one-sided at all!Polish literature on Wolun is full of examples of cruelty, I think that one should also to collect examples of Ukrainians who helped Poles?
Now on to Bulba's relations with the Poles. In his memuars "Armija bez derzhavy" he wrote that he tried to establish joint efforts against the communists but :
Athor then goes on about examples of Polish-German and Polish-Soviet collaboration."...all has failed. Poles remained shovenists and kept on considering Western Ukraine as unquestionable part of Poland and would not agree to any talks with "the traitors of Poland". They called UPA "bandits" which fights and will fight against the cordons of Poland.
We were very surprised by such views, considering the new changes on the international scene and B. Hodorovski (a pro-Ukrainian Poles) was very dissapointed with such behaviour of his countrymen. He was burned with shame with regards the blindness of his Poles.
......In March 1943 after the death of Hodorovski UPA headquarters tried one more time to establish contacts with the Polish side. This time it was a Polish priest from the village of STanaska-Guta. And this time again the poles stubbornly called all Ukrainians as "bandits" and would not give in into any talks. They were all hypnotized by the "Sikorski-Stalin" union, where a general amnesty for all Poles would be issued. ...As result, so not to offend their new relations with Russian, the Poles instead of cooperation with all the sides, constantly fought with the Ukrainian and Belorussian liberation movements.
Otaman Taras Bulba-Borovets "An Army Without a State - Glory and Tragedy of Ukrainian Insurrection Movement". Memoirs, published by Society of Volyn, Winnipeg, 1981. pg. 244.
P.S. Some info on him in English:
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm
-
David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
I've reposted this in the H&WC section thanks to Askold's correction. A google search for "Maksym Borowec" and "Maxim Borowec" and "Maksim Borowec" produced nothing, and the initial post made no mention of the UPA, so I incorrectly assumed RG was posting about the 19th Century Nikolai Gogol novella Taras Bulba.
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pa ... sTaras.htm
Let's look at Askold's source
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm
As for war-crimes then according to Victor Polishchuk Taras Bulba-Borovets noted that civil population hated Ukrainian nationalists (followers of Stepan Bandera) more than NKVD and Gestapo.
http://antisys.narod.ru/polishyk.html
Borovets led the revolutionary and military struggle according to the directives of the chiefs of staff of the Government-in-exile of the Ukrainian National Republic and put forth a democratic program. He was arrested in Berlin in late 1943 while negotiating with the Germans and was imprisoned in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
Let's look at Askold's source
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm
So 'Foreign Volunteers & Collaboration' would be likely more appropriate section to discuss the figure of Taras Bulba-Borovets.In 1943, the Gestapo treacherously arrested Bulba-Borovets and imprisoned him in a concentration camp in Saxenhausen, near Berlin
...
Late in 1944, the German authorities opened their negotiation with Ukrainian leaders in Saxenhausen, and as a result, they allowed the Ukrainians to organize their National Army under the command of General Pavlo Shandruk. The sole purpose of this Army was to fight against Soviet Communism. Otaman Bulba-Borovets was chosen to take command of the special Group B of the Ukrainian National Army that was to be parachuted into the Russian rear to engage in guerilla activities.
As for war-crimes then according to Victor Polishchuk Taras Bulba-Borovets noted that civil population hated Ukrainian nationalists (followers of Stepan Bandera) more than NKVD and Gestapo.
http://antisys.narod.ru/polishyk.html
Тем не менее, большинство населения Западной Укpаины, глядя на злодеяния как гитлеpовцев, так и бандеpовцев, изменило свои взгляды, дошло до того, что, как констатиpовал Таpас Бyльба-Боpовец, люди более ненавидели и боялись бандеpовцев, чем советского HКВД или гитлеpовского гестапо.
Bulba's open letter
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
And RG for You more of Bulba's fight with OUN-B murderers.
http://www.itmake.net/lprlodz/articles. ... f1ecf09a59
http://www.itmake.net/lprlodz/articles. ... f1ecf09a59
letter 2– source: "Oborona Ukrajiny", issue from 10.08 1943 r., quoted in: "Ukrajinśkyj Istoryk", USA, no 1-4 (101-104), 1990 r., pages. 114-119.
T. Bulba-Borowiec issued newspaper "Oborona Ukrajiny". In August 1943 Bulba published article "Cuckoo's nest" :
Open letter
To Leaders of OUN -B (Stephan Bandera's unit)
...(...)
Even during the talks instead of agreed common actions, military units of OUN, under the name of UPA, allegedly because of Bulba's order , began in dishinorable manner destroy Polish population as well as other nations.
(...)
Can real revolutioneer -patriot obey the command of the party who construction of the state begans of slauthery of minorities and thoughtless burning of theit homes? Ukraine has much more dangerous enemies than Poles.
T. Bulba-Borowiec issued newspaper "Oborona Ukrajiny". In August 1943 Bulba published article "Cuckoo's nest" :
How many victims of terror, strangling, martyring to death of heads of village local national councils, bulbas unit members, melnyk unit members, radicals, old petlura's men, former comsomol's members, independent - aware and honest Ukrainians were killed just because had different beliefs, because they condemned criminal Bandera's work, or they had..... good shoes and one from banderas unit command wanted to have it??? Who is in the command of OUN-B? Half-illiterates peasants, criminals and riffraff. And maybe it is a new form of "liberation" when for own party purposes "there is taken away the last shirt from peasants"?
AdaOg:
nsted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities...
- What does this has to do with this subject? Bulba Borovets was never in charge of OUN-B (I hope this wasn't assumed due to too many B's in the post
further along:
Even during the talks instead of agreed common actions, military units of OUN, under the name of UPA, allegedly because of Bulba's order , began in dishinorable manner destroy Polish population as well as other nations.
- So now you claim Bulba gave order to kill poles (in a dishonorable manner of course!)? I do not take Polischuk as acredited author and secondly I don't see how your posts add to the original subject - information on Bulba trying to establish friendly relations with the Poles.
nsted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities...
- What does this has to do with this subject? Bulba Borovets was never in charge of OUN-B (I hope this wasn't assumed due to too many B's in the post
further along:
Even during the talks instead of agreed common actions, military units of OUN, under the name of UPA, allegedly because of Bulba's order , began in dishinorable manner destroy Polish population as well as other nations.
- So now you claim Bulba gave order to kill poles (in a dishonorable manner of course!)? I do not take Polischuk as acredited author and secondly I don't see how your posts add to the original subject - information on Bulba trying to establish friendly relations with the Poles.
First I would like to thank for answers. Even to Askold 
By the way I would like to link with Askold's statements
Where should I begin with this faulty statement..........?
I would like to receive information on Taras Bulba (real name of Maksym Borowec) who was one of the few Ukrainians who refused to take part in mass murders against Poles[/quote].
- You make it sound as the solde idea of Ukrainians was to plot a mass murder against Poles
Faulty? I do not even suspect that the sole idea of Ukrainians was to exterminate Poles, I did not intend to say so, if you saw something between lines... it is your interpretation.
Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen?
Why not? You are welcome.
Now on to Bulba's relations with the Poles. In his memuars "Armija bez derzhavy" he wrote that he tried to establish joint efforts against the communists but :
Otaman Taras Bulba-Borovets "An Army Without a State - Glory and Tragedy of Ukrainian Insurrection Movement". Memoirs, published by Society of Volyn, Winnipeg, 1981. pg. 244.
P.S. Some info on him in English:
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm[/quote]
- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
By the way I would like to link with Askold's statements
Where should I begin with this faulty statement..........?
I would like to receive information on Taras Bulba (real name of Maksym Borowec) who was one of the few Ukrainians who refused to take part in mass murders against Poles[/quote].
- You make it sound as the solde idea of Ukrainians was to plot a mass murder against Poles
Faulty? I do not even suspect that the sole idea of Ukrainians was to exterminate Poles, I did not intend to say so, if you saw something between lines... it is your interpretation.
- His was was killed as result of internal conflict, when the Bandera faction took over the control of UPA. I have to admitt the control was taken over and rulled with an iron hand as as result those in opposing factions encountered losses.He wrote even letters to other Ukrainian leaders and protested against their policy of extermination. He paid for it with death of his wife killed by his political opponents.
Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen?
- What if I paraphrase you and write that "Ukrainian literature on Poles is full of examples of cruelty, but I think I should collect info on Poles who helped Ukrainians"? Sounds much better and not one-sided at all!Polish literature on Wolun is full of examples of cruelty, I think that one should also to collect examples of Ukrainians who helped Poles?
Why not? You are welcome.
Now on to Bulba's relations with the Poles. In his memuars "Armija bez derzhavy" he wrote that he tried to establish joint efforts against the communists but :
Athor then goes on about examples of Polish-German and Polish-Soviet collaboration."...all has failed. Poles remained shovenists and kept on considering Western Ukraine as unquestionable part of Poland and would not agree to any talks with "the traitors of Poland". They called UPA "bandits" which fights and will fight against the cordons of Poland.
We were very surprised by such views, considering the new changes on the international scene and B. Hodorovski (a pro-Ukrainian Poles) was very dissapointed with such behaviour of his countrymen. He was burned with shame with regards the blindness of his Poles.
......In March 1943 after the death of Hodorovski UPA headquarters tried one more time to establish contacts with the Polish side. This time it was a Polish priest from the village of STanaska-Guta. And this time again the poles stubbornly called all Ukrainians as "bandits" and would not give in into any talks. They were all hypnotized by the "Sikorski-Stalin" union, where a general amnesty for all Poles would be issued. ...As result, so not to offend their new relations with Russian, the Poles instead of cooperation with all the sides, constantly fought with the Ukrainian and Belorussian liberation movements.
Otaman Taras Bulba-Borovets "An Army Without a State - Glory and Tragedy of Ukrainian Insurrection Movement". Memoirs, published by Society of Volyn, Winnipeg, 1981. pg. 244.
P.S. Some info on him in English:
http://www.geocities.com/uno_montreal/b ... epilog.htm[/quote]
- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
First of all, I would like to tell the real story of Borowets' wife. In his book he says that she was Czech and that the SB OUN killed her. In reality she escaped to the Soviet partisans during negotiations (to one of their leaders, who went by the name of Lukin, I believe) and they got married.
1.Sergey, I am from Lviv. Sometimes I go for a ride to the village where my ancestors lived. I don't really know the people there anymore but in the center of that village there is a pretty large monument. On the monument I can read the names of the 30 or so people who served in the UPA from that village and were killed in the period 1945-1950. The inhabitants there nowadays are old people who saw all the events. If the UPA were terrorists and if the Ukrainian population hated them so much why don't those people demonstrate and say: "We don't want a monument to criminals in our village!". The reason is that in the minds of the people who saw the UPA fighting the NKVD for the freedom of Ukraine they will always be hereos. And it doesn't matter to us what Polishchuk or any other KGB agent writes.
2.Bulba's open letter
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
Ada, I will have to disappoint you. In the history of the Ukrainian resistance movement the role of Taras Bulba-Borowets is quite insignificant. I can say more. There are people from Volyn' who state that a lot of Poles (especially in Rivne region) were killed by the "bul'bivtsi" (Bulba partisans).
If the OUN wanted to share the power in a future state with someone it certainly wasn't Bulba, who didn't have anything but a big mouth.
I wonder who, besides the Soviets, was a bigger enemy for Ukraine than the Poles at that time?
3."Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen? "
RG, there were no two fractions of the UPA. Borowets did not have an army. He had one or two hundred men in one forest and one typewriter which he used to make one or two leaflets once in a while. Bulba was not a leader of a serious military organization!
4.- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
His opinion about Bandera's OUN is also only his opnion...
No, not wanting to offend the Russians doesn't sound at all reasonable. There is a word for this... collaboration.
BTW, why isn't Churchil a collaborator? After all he collaborated with the Soviet Union and Stalin and anyone who knows anything about the history of this part of the world will agree that the Soviet Union under Stalin killed much more people than Hitler ever did.
In coclusion I would like to say that I will always admire and respect the people who did not fear the Soviet regime, who went into the forests and showed those atheistic occupants that Ukraine has a right to be free.
1.Sergey, I am from Lviv. Sometimes I go for a ride to the village where my ancestors lived. I don't really know the people there anymore but in the center of that village there is a pretty large monument. On the monument I can read the names of the 30 or so people who served in the UPA from that village and were killed in the period 1945-1950. The inhabitants there nowadays are old people who saw all the events. If the UPA were terrorists and if the Ukrainian population hated them so much why don't those people demonstrate and say: "We don't want a monument to criminals in our village!". The reason is that in the minds of the people who saw the UPA fighting the NKVD for the freedom of Ukraine they will always be hereos. And it doesn't matter to us what Polishchuk or any other KGB agent writes.
2.Bulba's open letter
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
Ada, I will have to disappoint you. In the history of the Ukrainian resistance movement the role of Taras Bulba-Borowets is quite insignificant. I can say more. There are people from Volyn' who state that a lot of Poles (especially in Rivne region) were killed by the "bul'bivtsi" (Bulba partisans).
If the OUN wanted to share the power in a future state with someone it certainly wasn't Bulba, who didn't have anything but a big mouth.
I wonder who, besides the Soviets, was a bigger enemy for Ukraine than the Poles at that time?
3."Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen? "
RG, there were no two fractions of the UPA. Borowets did not have an army. He had one or two hundred men in one forest and one typewriter which he used to make one or two leaflets once in a while. Bulba was not a leader of a serious military organization!
4.- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
His opinion about Bandera's OUN is also only his opnion...
No, not wanting to offend the Russians doesn't sound at all reasonable. There is a word for this... collaboration.
BTW, why isn't Churchil a collaborator? After all he collaborated with the Soviet Union and Stalin and anyone who knows anything about the history of this part of the world will agree that the Soviet Union under Stalin killed much more people than Hitler ever did.
In coclusion I would like to say that I will always admire and respect the people who did not fear the Soviet regime, who went into the forests and showed those atheistic occupants that Ukraine has a right to be free.
Petro, I live in Moscow and (you can laugh) my real surmane is Poleshchuk ('e' is a mistake in the passport of my father). We with my wife have huge number of relatives in Ukraine.Petro wrote:Sergey, I am from Lviv.
You live in Galitsia and it is a special part of Ukraine. It has never been a part of Russia (Russian Empire, Soviet union) before 1939. I agree, that for you the Russians are simply foreigners. But a big part of the Ukrainians and the Russians have so close ties that it is impossible to break them.
Try to understand that for many Ukrainians OUN members were not heroes at all, merely separatists.
Returning to the theme of this thread I rather agree with you that Bulba-Borovets was not a significant figure in WW2 history.
Shche ne vmerla Ukraina!
[[quote="Petro"]First of all, I would like to tell the real story of Borowets' wife. In his book he says that she was Czech and that the SB OUN killed her. In reality she escaped to the Soviet partisans during negotiations (to one of their leaders, who went by the name of Lukin, I believe) and they got married.
- Who wrote that "real" story of Bulba's wife? Could you quote a source?
1.Sergey, I am from Lviv. Sometimes I go for a ride to the village where my ancestors lived. I don't really know the people there anymore but in the center of that village there is a pretty large monument. On the monument I can read the names of the 30 or so people who served in the UPA from that village and were killed in the period 1945-1950. The inhabitants there nowadays are old people who saw all the events. If the UPA were terrorists and if the Ukrainian population hated them so much why don't those people demonstrate and say: "We don't want a monument to criminals in our village!". The reason is that in the minds of the people who saw the UPA fighting the NKVD for the freedom of Ukraine they will always be hereos. And it doesn't matter to us what Polishchuk or any other KGB agent writes.
- Well, I always admired such opinions based on one observation. Using such a method we may prove everything.
2.Bulba's open letter
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
Ada, I will have to disappoint you. In the history of the Ukrainian resistance movement the role of Taras Bulba-Borowets is quite insignificant. I can say more. There are people from Volyn' who state that a lot of Poles (especially in Rivne region) were killed by the "bul'bivtsi" (Bulba partisans).
If the OUN wanted to share the power in a future state with someone it certainly wasn't Bulba, who didn't have anything but a big mouth.
I wonder who, besides the Soviets, was a bigger enemy for Ukraine than the Poles at that time?
- I feel little contempt in your post in relation to Bulba "who had anything but a big mouth". Definetly he was not a great commander, otherwise majority of Ukrainians would follow him, not Bandera nor joined Germans, but do you have something against him beside of his "insignificant" role in history? I know that history is written by victors, but it does not mean that they were right.
3."Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen? "
RG, there were no two fractions of the UPA. Borowets did not have an army. He had one or two hundred men in one forest and one typewriter which he used to make one or two leaflets once in a while. Bulba was not a leader of a serious military organization!
- If he had no real military power, his protests against criminal actions committed by more powerful organizations show that he was a brave guy who did not follow the majority but kept his own moral standards. And it is not an answer to the question how many Ukrainians were killed in fratricide fights?
4.- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
His opinion about Bandera's OUN is also only his opnion...
No, not wanting to offend the Russians doesn't sound at all reasonable. There is a word for this... collaboration.
BTW, why isn't Churchil a collaborator? After all he collaborated with the Soviet Union and Stalin and anyone who knows anything about the history of this part of the world will agree that the Soviet Union under Stalin killed much more people than Hitler ever did.
In coclusion I would like to say that I will always admire and respect the people who did not fear the Soviet regime, who went into the forests and showed those atheistic occupants that Ukraine has a right to be free.
- Well, anybody who knows history of this part of Europe knows that nations occupied by Germans and Soviets had no simple choice. No Poles nor Ukrainians had a power to struggle against both enemies, they were to decide who is worse and both Poles and Ukrainians had this dilemma. Polish government decided to sign agreement with Soviets in the moment when Soviets were in danger, and in fact we had no choice, Churchill decided to support Stalin (although he hated him) and what Poland could do? Withdraw Polish forces fighting against Germans, because it supported Soviets? Ridiculous. And in fact it would mean collaboration with Germans (according to your definition of word “Collaboration”). So do not call people who decided to respect official polish-soviet agreement as collaborators, because if you do so it will be difficult to find anybody in the western Ukraine who according to your “high moral standards” was not collaborating with German or Soviets.
In conclusion, I would like to say that I always admired and respected people who did not fear Soviet regime, and showed that their country has right to be free provided on that they fight against this power not civilians. Otherwise we should admire SS too…
- Who wrote that "real" story of Bulba's wife? Could you quote a source?
1.Sergey, I am from Lviv. Sometimes I go for a ride to the village where my ancestors lived. I don't really know the people there anymore but in the center of that village there is a pretty large monument. On the monument I can read the names of the 30 or so people who served in the UPA from that village and were killed in the period 1945-1950. The inhabitants there nowadays are old people who saw all the events. If the UPA were terrorists and if the Ukrainian population hated them so much why don't those people demonstrate and say: "We don't want a monument to criminals in our village!". The reason is that in the minds of the people who saw the UPA fighting the NKVD for the freedom of Ukraine they will always be hereos. And it doesn't matter to us what Polishchuk or any other KGB agent writes.
- Well, I always admired such opinions based on one observation. Using such a method we may prove everything.
2.Bulba's open letter
"...insted of conducting actions in keeping with agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in a horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as the other minorities... Can a true revolutionary stetesman submit himself to a leadership of a party which begins teh construction of the nation with the extermination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles ...What are you fighting for? For Ukraine or for OUN? For the Ukrainian state or for the dictatorship in that state?"
Ada, I will have to disappoint you. In the history of the Ukrainian resistance movement the role of Taras Bulba-Borowets is quite insignificant. I can say more. There are people from Volyn' who state that a lot of Poles (especially in Rivne region) were killed by the "bul'bivtsi" (Bulba partisans).
If the OUN wanted to share the power in a future state with someone it certainly wasn't Bulba, who didn't have anything but a big mouth.
I wonder who, besides the Soviets, was a bigger enemy for Ukraine than the Poles at that time?
- I feel little contempt in your post in relation to Bulba "who had anything but a big mouth". Definetly he was not a great commander, otherwise majority of Ukrainians would follow him, not Bandera nor joined Germans, but do you have something against him beside of his "insignificant" role in history? I know that history is written by victors, but it does not mean that they were right.
3."Hm, poor Ukrainians (without irony) strugling against Germans, Soviets and Poles and killing themselves also. In fact I am curious, was the attitude towards extermination of Poles one of the moot point between both fractions of UPA. And how many Ukrainians were killed by their countrymen? "
RG, there were no two fractions of the UPA. Borowets did not have an army. He had one or two hundred men in one forest and one typewriter which he used to make one or two leaflets once in a while. Bulba was not a leader of a serious military organization!
- If he had no real military power, his protests against criminal actions committed by more powerful organizations show that he was a brave guy who did not follow the majority but kept his own moral standards. And it is not an answer to the question how many Ukrainians were killed in fratricide fights?
4.- To establish the co-operation between Poles and Ukrainians there would be necessary good will of both sides, the book you quoted represnts his only opinion. I do not know opinions of polish negotiators, but I think that argument that Poles did not want to offend Russians sounds reasonable, they were obliged to be loyal to the Polish-Soviet agreement and do not to co-operate with anti-soviet forces. I wouldn't call it collaboration. If pact Sikorski-Stalin" was a collaboration it means that also Churchil was a collaborator too.
His opinion about Bandera's OUN is also only his opnion...
No, not wanting to offend the Russians doesn't sound at all reasonable. There is a word for this... collaboration.
BTW, why isn't Churchil a collaborator? After all he collaborated with the Soviet Union and Stalin and anyone who knows anything about the history of this part of the world will agree that the Soviet Union under Stalin killed much more people than Hitler ever did.
In coclusion I would like to say that I will always admire and respect the people who did not fear the Soviet regime, who went into the forests and showed those atheistic occupants that Ukraine has a right to be free.
- Well, anybody who knows history of this part of Europe knows that nations occupied by Germans and Soviets had no simple choice. No Poles nor Ukrainians had a power to struggle against both enemies, they were to decide who is worse and both Poles and Ukrainians had this dilemma. Polish government decided to sign agreement with Soviets in the moment when Soviets were in danger, and in fact we had no choice, Churchill decided to support Stalin (although he hated him) and what Poland could do? Withdraw Polish forces fighting against Germans, because it supported Soviets? Ridiculous. And in fact it would mean collaboration with Germans (according to your definition of word “Collaboration”). So do not call people who decided to respect official polish-soviet agreement as collaborators, because if you do so it will be difficult to find anybody in the western Ukraine who according to your “high moral standards” was not collaborating with German or Soviets.
In conclusion, I would like to say that I always admired and respected people who did not fear Soviet regime, and showed that their country has right to be free provided on that they fight against this power not civilians. Otherwise we should admire SS too…