Hello Qvist
Qvist wrote:
This link is a book review that provides a good overview of the status of that debate:
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.cg ... 9851382536
Note particularly the right-hand column on page 2, which points out that the official Soviet figure pertains only to POWs who died after reaching permanent camps, while it is quite possibly that a larger number died before doing so, before they were even registered. I think a fair summation of the status of the historiographical discussion of that issue is that it remains unsettled.
We could probably both do with updating ourselves a bit on this issue. I am much more critically handicapped than you, as I do not understand any Russian at all. It would certainly be useful for me to have a better grasp on the arguments presented in Soviet historiography for the official figures. I also think you would profit from acquainting yourself with the very considerable research on the subject that has been performed by German scholars. After all, it cannot be expected that Soviet-era works would address the issue in a way that takes into account the arguments against the official figures.
A final note regarding the unsolicited review
submitted to H-German by Paul Boytinck in
January 1996: That review gives a skewed
impression of Karner’s book, which deals only
tangentially with the problem that preoccupies
Boytinck -- the issue of POW deaths. It is
generally believed that roughly 1.5 million German
prisoners died in captivity in the Soviet Union, the
vast majority between capture and arrival at
"permanent" prisoner of war camps. Arrival at an
exact estimate is complicated by the chaotic nature
of the immediate postwar months; the fact that
official Soviet pronouncements on the matter
frequently changed and were thus unreliable; and
the until- recent inaccessibility of Soviet archives.
Karner’s archival research, which deals only with
GUPVI (which administered the permanent camps
as well as temporary collection points at the front)
cannot shed any light here. The registration of
prisoners did not occur until they had reached the
permanent camps, so Karner can only provide the
official GUPVI figure of 356,687 German
prisoners who died from illness and other causes
while in the permanent camps (79). This figure
leaves roughly a million missing soldiers.
In Russia many documents from archive GUPVI are published.
I, for example, have a collection of documents in three volumes, on 500 pages in each volume.
I wish to emphasize especially, that in the collection only documents, the author's text there practically is absent.
Therefore I have an idea clearly enough about a subject of conversation.
Under documents it is visible, that communiques of the Soviet Government about position captured in the USSR are characterized by a high degree of reliability and accuracy.
Available mistakes were insignificant and had technical character. No deliberate disinformation in the Soviet messages is present.
The one who makes bold to approve back, has all chances of sitting down to get in a pool.
After the soldier of the opponent was taken prisoner, it sent on an assembly point of reception captured.
Thus for Germans, the Austrians, Danes, Dutchs, Norwegians, Finns and Spaniards an escort allocated without fail.
And here, for the Romanian, Hungarians, Poles, Czech, Frenchmen, Slovaks and other Europeans the escort, as a rule, was not appointed. Captured these nationalities followed on an assembly point independently, under direction of one of the officers or corporals.
On an assembly point captured were sorted. The one who has been wounded, whenever possible, went to hospital.
Under the instruction it was necessary wounded men and patients to go in hospital on treatment.
The instruction forbade wounded captured to send in road.
From documents it is visible, that this requirement of the instruction was not always carried out.
It is visible, as, that high instances constantly reminded the subordinates of necessity to observe these requirements of the instruction.
All quite often together with healthy captured in a way was sent also by those who was wounded or strongly sick.
It is natural, that in a way wounded men and patients captured could die.
The account of this category died captured was not such exact, as the account of fatal cases in stationary camps.
However, it does not mean, that it was impossible to define what exponent of those who has died along the line to stationary camps.
When captured sent from time camp in stationary camp it was informed on telegraph.
In the message date and a departure time, and as the general number captured were specified.
On arrival of an echelon to destination defined quantity arrived in an echelon captured.
The certificate of reception-transfer was made.
The European researchers confuse the readers when declare, that as if not it is impossible to define number captured which have died in a way between time camp and stationary camp.
It is natural, that it is impossible to define this number to within one person as it takes place for stationary camps.
However to estimate approximately this number quite under force to everyone who really wishes to know the truth.
According to calculations Russian researchers in a way has died up to 240,0 thousand captured German and Austrian the soldier of the opponent.
In view of 356,687 person which have died in stationary camps, we have, that in a captivity has died about 600,0 thousand Germans and the Austrians.
Except for it has died still in total about 200,0 thousand captured other nationalities.
Total in the USSR has died 0,8 million captured Europeans.
In the Soviet documents the facts of cruel treatment to captured Germans from Russian the soldier and officers are fixed. However, if about such cases of an arbitrariness in relation to captured learned higher instance concerning admitted offence applied punishment, and, sometimes down to execution.
Differently, in the USSR the facts of display of cruelty in relation to captured Germans took place.
However, in the USSR there was no system of destruction of captured Germans.
Very much the other way, the system demanded that captured was the healthy person.
The system of destruction has another internally the maintenance, not such as was available in GUPVI.
During war the system of destruction captured was
Only there was this system not in the USSR, and there was this system in the Europe.
Among those 8, 6 million soldier and officers of Red Army who are registered on victims during GPW, those are considered also 3,0 million person which Europeans have destroyed in camps for captured.
The number captured from both parties (for Red Army and for Europeans) is approximately identical: roughly on 4,5 million person.
For the USSR it is had: 0,8 million died and victims in a captivity of Europeans
For the Europe it is had: 3,0 million died and victims Soviet (mainly, Russian) the soldier and officers
These figures evidently define a level of barbarity the shown each party during war.
If Europeans are excited with what parity between a death-roll in fight the soldier and officers Red Army and a death-roll in fights of Europeans it is necessary to act as follows was.
For Red Army: from 8,6 million to subtract 3,0 million that gives number 5,6 of one million victims in fight.
For the European armies: from 5,5 million to take away 0,8 million that gives number 4,7 of one million victims in fight. For Germany and Italy it is necessary to subtract as about 0,3 million person which were lost till June, 22nd, 1941 and in fights with Anglo-Americans in Northern Africa, Italy, France and Atlantic.
So we have:
5,6 million victims the soldier and officers of Red Army
4,4 million victims the soldier and officers of the European armies.
/
Yuri