German losses

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Qvist
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German losses

#1

Post by Qvist » 19 Jun 2006, 22:06

SPLIT OFF FROM THE "SOVIET FRONTS STRENGTH" STICKY

Hello Yuri

First of all, thank you for the very interesting ration strength figures, which are a very nice addition to this thread. Some comments however to your previous post:
For example, in 1942 the general number the soldier and officers of armies of the countries of the Axis who conducted operations against Red Army, made 6,2 million men.
Including Wermacht - 5,3 million men.
This is a much too high figure. The strength of the Ostheer in 1942 never reached 3 million, and was more usually not very much above 2.5 million. To this can be added a few hundred thousand LW personnel and maybe 250,000-300,000 HiWis. This adds up to a very great deal less than 5.3 million.
In total for four years GPW against Red Army it has been exposed 21,5 million soldier and officers of the countries of the Axis. Including 17,5 million Germans.
That figure is very nearly equal to the total number of men who served in the whole Wehrmacht at one point or another during the course of the war and is much, much too high as a measure of German manpower committed in the East.¨
In total in Red Army it has been called 34,5 million person, including 450,0 thousand women.
From these 34,5 million to forces of armies of the Axis resisted 25,5 million soldier and officers of Red Army.
Here I am uncertain what you mean. Sorry, could you clarify?
In total irrevocable losses of Red Army (the victims who have died of wound, taken prisoner, missing persons) have made almost 12,0 million.
Irrevocable losses of armies of the Axis have made more than 9,0 million.
See this discussion: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=


Where do all of these figures come from?

cheers
Last edited by Qvist on 21 Jun 2006, 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Yuri
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#2

Post by Yuri » 20 Jun 2006, 22:57

Qvist wrote: See this discussion: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

cheers
Has read through all twelve sheets of this of a thread.
It is very a pity, that my knowledge of English language do not allow me to accept high-grade participation in discussion of this forum.
To me it is not clear, why participants of discussion criticize the general-colonel of Krivosheyev for those data which are available in his book on battles losses of Germany and other countries of the Axis.
The overall objective of Russian military historians under direction of the general-colonel of Krivosheyev consisted in investigating battles losses of Russian army in XX century. In particular, battles losses Red Army during Great Domestic war.
In of the Krivosheyev's book military losses of Germany and other countries of the Axis are given only as the information.
No more that.
On military losses Wermacht and military losses of other countries of the Axis the general-colonel Krivosheyev has taken data from other fundamental work: « History the militarian of losses. Wars and the population of the Europe. Human losses of armed forces ».
The book « History the militarian of losses. Wars and the population of the Europe. Human losses of armed forces » were written by other outstanding Russian military historian and scientist B.Ñ.Urlanis.
It is strange, that the Russian participant of discussion not óêçàë on the of B. C. Urlanis book.
In B.Ñ.Urlanis work losses Wermacht and his allies are in detail investigated. There there are many tables and documents.
It is necessary to tell, that the B. C..Urlanis book of « History the militarian of losses. Wars and the population of the Europe. Human losses of armed forces » on volume on much more, than the book the general-colonel of Krivosheyev.
In the by B. C. Urlanis book of battles losses Wermacht and allies of Germany are investigated deeply enough and consequently Krivosheyev did not need to investigate it still time.
If who has doubts on reliability on figure of losses Wermacht it should be defined under documents from B.C.Urlanis book.
Still time I shall tell. B. C. Urlanis book is fundamental, big on volume scientific work.
In B.C.Urlanis book are available not only German documents, there are available as American, English, French and other. …
It is possible to find in B.C.Urlanis book almost all answers to all those questions which are set by participants of this forum.
It is very strange, that in the Europe there are no fundamental scientific works on military losses.
And here in Russia they are.
As speak in Russia: Europeans are compelled to guess on a cream of wheat.
Europeans use data from memoirs of the German military leaders.
But it is necessary to remember, that the Red Army has broken these military leaders on fields of battles.
Apparently, the German military leaders have lost for the true war, but they have won war of memoirs.
It speaks that Europeans do not wish to know the truth about how the armed struggle in fronts of the Second World war was unwrapped.
And there can be Europeans all still do not wish to recognize the defeat in this war?
But, in fact, the same bygone day.
Or I am mistaken?

/
Yuri


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#3

Post by Qvist » 20 Jun 2006, 23:46

Hello Yuri
It is very a pity, that my knowledge of English language do not allow me to accept high-grade participation in discussion of this forum.
I think your English seems quite adequate for that. If something is unclear, people will just ask for clarification. If you don't mind that too much, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to participate fully. You would be very welcome to.

I agree that the weakness of Krivosheev's chapter on German losses does not fundamentally detract from the value of his book, which resides as you say in his treatment of his main subject, which is the Red Army losses. Still, as that chapter was brought up as a source to German losses, it became relevant to discuss it. It would help to explain the inadequacy of the analysis if it rested on that of another work, but no reference is made to that by Krivosheev. In any case, much of his data deviates from what the German documentation itself tells to an enormous degree.

It is true that there is as yet no really comprehensive historical treatment of the German data. That being said, there has been publsihed a great deal of value on the subject, and I do not here refer to any memoirs, which is of little or no value in this regard. Also, the German documentation has been freely available to researchers for many decades. That documentation does present a fairly clear and coherent picture, and that picture fundamentally and clearly contradicts the figures you quoted earlier.

I am not familiar with Urlanis' book, and so cannot comment on it. I have however seen and worked with a fairly significant amount of German documentation on this subject, and I have never seen anything that would suggest, or even permit, figures of this magnitude. Hence, I must say that I am very doubtful that such figures could be established by any reasonable analysis of the German documentation. This assumes of course that the figures you quoted were from that work, if that is correct?
It speaks that Europeans do not wish to know the truth about how the armed struggle in fronts of the Second World war was unwrapped.
And there can be Europeans all still do not wish to recognize the defeat in this war?
But, in fact, the same bygone day.
Or I am mistaken?
Well, I would with all due respect say that you are. First of all, most Europeans won the war, and have no defeat not to recognise. It is unfortunate but not very surprising that there is as yet no comprehensive treatment of the German strength and losses - such a work would have to rest on a fairly massive research effort, and be of doubtful commercial feasibility for a publishing house. Most historians - to say nothing of most readers - tend to prefer using data as one part of a more general analysis rather than making the data itself the object of their investigation. In any case, many good studies have been published for more limited parts of the conflict, and also for the overall picture there is f.e. such a work as Burkhard Müller-Hillebrand's Das Heer (also translated into Russian), which provides a quite adequate general picture of these things.

cheers

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#4

Post by Yuri » 21 Jun 2006, 03:01

I can add only, that in work Urlanis uses even data from of church books.
The greatest value, in opinion Urlanis, data of rural churches represent.


Here, for example, the table which in 1955 have made it is both German the governments - DDR and BDR (this table is available in book Urlanis).

Balance of the population of Germany for 1939-1955
Article of balance / Thousand person
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Number of Germany for May, 17th, 1939
(In borders for December, 31st, 1937) … … … … … .69 310
2. For the period 1939-1955 the population:
a) has increased due to:
- Born … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … .18 700
- The moved Germans from abroad … … … … ….. 4 850
Total in arrival: … … … … … … … … … … … … … … 23 550

b) has decreased due to:
- Death of civilians … … … … … … … 14 150
- Destructions of civilians from bombardments … 410
- Destructions of the population in a front strip ........ 20
- The killed soldiers and officers Wermacht ......... 3 780
- Germans living in east areas … ….. 1 040
- Losses from fleeing and resettlement .................. 1 260
- The emigrated and destroyed Jews … … … …. 200
- The emigrated Germans ................................... 500
- Other ............................................................. 100
In total in the charge: ....................................... 21 500

Excess of arrival over the charge: ...................... 2 050
Population for December, 31st, 1955 ….. 71 300

In the note to this table German composers specify:
- In the column « the killed soldiers and officers Wermacht » are not considered the military men who have died of wounds received at the front, and as died from the illnesses received at the front.

But it not all. In 1955 the government of Germany continued to consider about 2 million soldier and officers as missing persons.
Thus, government BDR considered, that:
From these 2 million German soldier Vermahta of 100 thousand person were in correspondence with the relatives and relatives, and from other 1 900 thousand person there were no news.
The government of Germany approved, that these Germans are, ostensibly, in a captivity in the USSR.
Chancellor Adenauer and Minister for Foreign Affairs of Germany have addressed to N.Khruschev with the request to return these German the soldier from a captivity.
In a manner of speech peculiar to him N.Khruschev has given such answer:
« Representing yourselves the hero ostensibly struggling for returning of thousand and thousand of people in their families, you, mister Adenauer, as though wish to console grief of mothers, wives, children of these people, and in essence scoff above human misfortune as nothing can revive dead ».

Apparently, even Germans do not consider authentic those data who contain in documents OKW and OKH.

From all which set of data gives Urlanis, follows, that the soldier and officers Wermacht of victims during the Second World war makes number not less, than 4 million person. It is most lowest of all possible figures. This figure does not consider the Austrians, inhabitants of Alsace and other.
Into this number do not enter W-SS and Hiwi from other countries.
Do not enter into this number and citizens of Germany who was not registered in Wermacht, however was lost on a battlefield of fight.

In work Urlanis data of other historians who dealing with a problem of calculation of losses Wermacht are analyzed: German, American, English, French. And, Urlanis analyzes also those who underestimates figure of losses Wermacht, and those who, on the contrary, is inclined to overestimate German losses.

/

Yuri

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#5

Post by Qvist » 21 Jun 2006, 08:33

Hello Yuri
I can add only, that in work Urlanis uses even data from of church books.
The greatest value, in opinion Urlanis, data of rural churches represent.
That may be good for general demographical purposes, but it is not for military losses - where you need to now things like when and where soldiers died, and also more than just who died. (Wounded? Missing?). Anyway, this type of demographic analysis is something different from the sort of casualty analysis Krivosheev does for the Red Army, which is based on the documentation of the RKKA and deals in military losses broadly defined, not just deaths. For the demographic side, there are/i] works published which makes Krivosheev's study seem like a paltry pamphlet by comparison - the 22 volume-work of the Maschke Commission, which worked for about two decades, also the more recent Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg by Rüdiger Overmans.
Here, for example, the table which in 1955 have made it is both German the governments - DDR and BDR (this table is available in book Urlanis).

Balance of the population of Germany for 1939-1955
Article of balance / Thousand person
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Number of Germany for May, 17th, 1939
(In borders for December, 31st, 1937) … … … … … .69 310
2. For the period 1939-1955 the population:
a) has increased due to:
- Born … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … .18 700
- The moved Germans from abroad … … … … ….. 4 850
Total in arrival: … … … … … … … … … … … … … … 23 550

b) has decreased due to:
- Death of civilians … … … … … … … 14 150
- Destructions of civilians from bombardments … 410
- Destructions of the population in a front strip ........ 20
- The killed soldiers and officers Wermacht ......... 3 780
- Germans living in east areas … ….. 1 040
- Losses from fleeing and resettlement .................. 1 260
- The emigrated and destroyed Jews … … … …. 200
- The emigrated Germans ................................... 500
- Other ............................................................. 100
In total in the charge: ....................................... 21 500

Excess of arrival over the charge: ...................... 2 050
Population for December, 31st, 1955 ….. 71 300

In the note to this table German composers specify:
- In the column « the killed soldiers and officers Wermacht » are not considered the military men who have died of wounds received at the front, and as died from the illnesses received at the front.
[/quote]
Well, I can only say that a figure of 3.7 million German servicemen killed that does not take into account dead from wounds, illness and in captivity would quite simply be utterly untenable. That would in essence leave only Killed in Action, and the recorded figure for that by late April 1945 was only a little above 1 million. This is known to be too low of course, but not by a factor 3.5. If however the figure does include not only KIA, but also DOW, DOI, dead in captivity and a large number of missing presumed dead, then it is more or less in line with other investigations. I would suggest that Urlanis here has misunderstood or misrepresented the document he has used. If dead of wounds, illness or in captivity is not included in that figure, where are they included? They have to be included somewhere, as this is a general demographical calculation of the whole German population.

But it not all. In 1955 the government of Germany continued to consider about 2 million soldier and officers as missing persons.
Thus, government BDR considered, that:
From these 2 million German soldier Vermahta of 100 thousand person were in correspondence with the relatives and relatives, and from other 1 900 thousand person there were no news.
The government of Germany approved, that these Germans are, ostensibly, in a captivity in the USSR.
Chancellor Adenauer and Minister for Foreign Affairs of Germany have addressed to N.Khruschev with the request to return these German the soldier from a captivity.
In a manner of speech peculiar to him N.Khruschev has given such answer:
« Representing yourselves the hero ostensibly struggling for returning of thousand and thousand of people in their families, you, mister Adenauer, as though wish to console grief of mothers, wives, children of these people, and in essence scoff above human misfortune as nothing can revive dead ».


I hope we can agree that a public statement by Khruschev is not exactly a very interesting source in that regard. There is still a large number of German servicemen missing - around 1 million. The Maschke Commission concluded that these were primarily POWs held in the East, a conclusion I don't believe has been seriously challenged though it has never been confirmed either.

Apparently, even Germans do not consider authentic those data who contain in documents OKW and OKH.


There are no data in OKH or OKW documents that contradict the German claims you refer to above - at least not in any I've seen.

From all which set of data gives Urlanis, follows, that the soldier and officers Wermacht of victims during the Second World war makes number not less, than 4 million person. It is most lowest of all possible figures. This figure does not consider the Austrians, inhabitants of Alsace and other.
Into this number do not enter W-SS and Hiwi from other countries.
Do not enter into this number and citizens of Germany who was not registered in Wermacht, however was lost on a battlefield of fight.
In work Urlanis data of other historians who dealing with a problem of calculation of losses Wermacht are analyzed: German, American, English, French. And, Urlanis analyzes also those who underestimates figure of losses Wermacht, and those who, on the contrary, is inclined to overestimate German losses.


Well, it is difficult to comment meaningfully on this without reading his analysis. But figures of roughly that order is roughly similar to what Overmans has found, f.e.

cheers
Last edited by Qvist on 21 Jun 2006, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

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#6

Post by Michate » 21 Jun 2006, 08:49

The issue of German military dead (including ALL the missing, unclear and unreported cases from ALL military AND paramilitary services, but not not wounded and ill) has been treated thoroughly by Rüdiger Overmans, Deutsche Militärische Verluste im 2. Weltkrieg.

Overmans commented on all existing other works on German military losses and actually found good words on Urlanis' work.

Comparison of the figures of dead Overmans arrives at (and which do include all missing and unclear cases) with that compiled by the Wehrmacht reporting system shows Overmans figures to be roughly 10% higher up to 1943 (which was also the informed estimate by Mueller-Hillebrand on the reliability of the reporting system) while the discrepancy grows to roughly 20% in 1944. Still the figures are much lower than the Soviet loss figures reported for equivalent periods.

In 1945 the casualty reporting system broke down more or less completely, so the existing documentation from it is unreliable; and a lot of other difficulties to obtain a reliable figure of losses appear.

BTW, the documentation is completely free to access in Germany and also in the US, so anyone can get his own picture.

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#7

Post by Yuri » 21 Jun 2006, 11:22

Hello Qvist
Qvist wrote:
Well, I can only say that a figure of 3.7 million German servicemen killed that does not take into account dead from wounds, illness and in captivity would quite simply be utterly untenable. That would in essence leave only Killed in Action, and the recorded figure for that by late April 1945 was only a little above 1 million. This is known to be too low of course, but not by a factor 3.5. If however the figure does include not only KIA, but also DOW, DOI, dead in captivity and a large number of missing presumed dead, then it is more or less in line with other investigations. I would suggest that Urlanis here has misunderstood or misrepresented the document he has used. If dead of wounds, illness or in captivity is not included in that figure, where are they included? They have to be included somewhere, as this is a general demographical calculation of the whole German population.
Here Urlanis nothing deformed.
It has printed only that have published both German of the government.
But, I, probably, have not clearly translated the text.
In this case it is a question of small percent of people.
Here mean those wounded men who were treated in hospital, and then they have been dismissed as not suitable for military service.
That is these people have died already at home, instead of in hospital.
Basically, such died the soldier and officers should not be much.
Probably it is 2-4 % from the general number.


Question not in that as Khruschev publicly spoke.
The main thing in that the government of Germany, without everyone on that the bases, considered in 1955 that hundred thousand was the soldier and officers Âåðìàõòà all are still alive.
The main thing in that the government of Germany has been assured, that they, ostensibly, are in a captivity in the USSR.

It is well visible from the following document:
=============
Archive of Foreign policy of the Russian Federation.
Fund 06, the inventory 14, folder 14, file 206, pages 86-87, 90-91, 92-94
------------------------

Legal record of negotiations of delegations of the USSR and Germany from September, 13th, 1955.

On September, 13th, 1955

Were present:

From Germany - chancellor Adenauer, Brentano, Halstein, Kisinger.
From the USSR - Khruschev, Molotov, Bulganin, Semenov.

[...] Kisinger: It would be desirable to pay your attention that is a lot of Germans - many hundred thousand Germans - are in Soviet Union, that we know from the letters which have acted to Germany for last years. We should reckon with that in territory of Soviet Union there are following groups of persons: the first group consists of former military men and in the service in armed forces. It is how much possible to establish, they are, mainly, in Sverdlovsk area …
[...] Adenauer: At today's morning negotiations two items have remained for us unpleasant. First, that there could be at you an assumption that the figures named by us are taken from a ceiling. Secondly, mister Kisinger would like to give fuller information just.
Bulganin: It not data, and speech. And data whom you do not give us are necessary to us.
Khruschev: Data: it means lists of addresses and surnames ….
For us it is absolutely unexpected. We do not know, the application of mister of the Chancellor is based on what materials, that, ostensibly, at us, by letters, which relatives and receive from Germans being here. This your application. You for it answer. We for it do not take the responsibility...

--------------
Archive of Foreign policy of the Russian Federation.
Fund 06, the inventory 14, folder 14, file 206, pages 86-87, 90-91, 92-94
=====================

In the USSR everyone captured was considered personally.
The destiny of everyone can be tracked.
Exceptions of it of unit. The general picture in the general balance such exclusive a case will not change.
Hundreds thousand and millions the people who have gone without a trace in camps GULAG, it is necessary to leave any terrible histories for sentimental novels.
And from the quoted document it is visible, that the government of Germany continued to consider alive those German the soldier and officers who actually is killed in fight.

/

Yuri

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#8

Post by Qvist » 21 Jun 2006, 12:09

Hello Yuri
Here Urlanis nothing deformed.
It has printed only that have published both German of the government.
But, I, probably, have not clearly translated the text.
In this case it is a question of small percent of people.
Here mean those wounded men who were treated in hospital, and then they have been dismissed as not suitable for military service.
That is these people have died already at home, instead of in hospital.
Basically, such died the soldier and officers should not be much.
Probably it is 2-4 % from the general number.
OK, right, so the figure is essentially one that encompasses everyone who died while still being in a uniform, to put it like that - whether at the front, in a hospital bed in Germany or in captivity.
It is well visible from the following document:
=============
Archive of Foreign policy of the Russian Federation.
Fund 06, the inventory 14, folder 14, file 206, pages 86-87, 90-91, 92-94
------------------------

Legal record of negotiations of delegations of the USSR and Germany from September, 13th, 1955.

On September, 13th, 1955

Were present:

From Germany - chancellor Adenauer, Brentano, Halstein, Kisinger.
From the USSR - Khruschev, Molotov, Bulganin, Semenov.

[...] Kisinger: It would be desirable to pay your attention that is a lot of Germans - many hundred thousand Germans - are in Soviet Union, that we know from the letters which have acted to Germany for last years. We should reckon with that in territory of Soviet Union there are following groups of persons: the first group consists of former military men and in the service in armed forces. It is how much possible to establish, they are, mainly, in Sverdlovsk area …
[...] Adenauer: At today's morning negotiations two items have remained for us unpleasant. First, that there could be at you an assumption that the figures named by us are taken from a ceiling. Secondly, mister Kisinger would like to give fuller information just.
Bulganin: It not data, and speech. And data whom you do not give us are necessary to us.
Khruschev: Data: it means lists of addresses and surnames ….
For us it is absolutely unexpected. We do not know, the application of mister of the Chancellor is based on what materials, that, ostensibly, at us, by letters, which relatives and receive from Germans being here. This your application. You for it answer. We for it do not take the responsibility...
--------------
Archive of Foreign policy of the Russian Federation.
Fund 06, the inventory 14, folder 14, file 206, pages 86-87, 90-91, 92-94
=====================

In the USSR everyone captured was considered personally.
The destiny of everyone can be tracked.
Exceptions of it of unit. The general picture in the general balance such exclusive a case will not change.
Hundreds thousand and millions the people who have gone without a trace in camps GULAG, it is necessary to leave any terrible histories for sentimental novels.
And from the quoted document it is visible, that the government of Germany continued to consider alive those German the soldier and officers who actually is killed in fight.
I must first of all say that this is not an issue I have studied in any great detail, and certainly not enough to construct a viable independent argument one way or another. But the historiography I have seen commenting on that issue clearly suggests that the issue is from as simple as that, and certainly not something that can be relegated to the realm of fantasy. Chief among these is the massive work of the Maschke commission, which concluded with a number of German POW deaths in the East that is roughly four times as large as the official Soviet figure. While it cannot neccessarily be assumed that the MC was correct, it also cannot neccessarily be assumed that the official Soviet figure is correct, and it is also clear that the Soviet figure has a scope of inclusiveness which does not extend to all German servicemen who were captured by Soviet forces. And the findings of a commission that worked over two decades and published its findings in 22 volumes cannot be simply dismissed just because Soviet authorities provided a different figure. Whether accurate or not, the assumption of the German gvt that considerably more German soldiers had entered Soviet captivity than were reflected in official Soviet figures was not taken out of thin air.

This link is a book review that provides a good overview of the status of that debate:

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.cg ... 9851382536

Note particularly the right-hand column on page 2, which points out that the official Soviet figure pertains only to POWs who died after reaching permanent camps, while it is quite possibly that a larger number died before doing so, before they were even registered. I think a fair summation of the status of the historiographical discussion of that issue is that it remains unsettled.

We could probably both do with updating ourselves a bit on this issue. I am much more critically handicapped than you, as I do not understand any Russian at all. It would certainly be useful for me to have a better grasp on the arguments presented in Soviet historiography for the official figures. I also think you would profit from acquainting yourself with the very considerable research on the subject that has been performed by German scholars. After all, it cannot be expected that Soviet-era works would address the issue in a way that takes into account the arguments against the official figures.

cheers

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#9

Post by Yuri » 21 Jun 2006, 17:20

Hello Qvist
Qvist wrote: This link is a book review that provides a good overview of the status of that debate:

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.cg ... 9851382536

Note particularly the right-hand column on page 2, which points out that the official Soviet figure pertains only to POWs who died after reaching permanent camps, while it is quite possibly that a larger number died before doing so, before they were even registered. I think a fair summation of the status of the historiographical discussion of that issue is that it remains unsettled.

We could probably both do with updating ourselves a bit on this issue. I am much more critically handicapped than you, as I do not understand any Russian at all. It would certainly be useful for me to have a better grasp on the arguments presented in Soviet historiography for the official figures. I also think you would profit from acquainting yourself with the very considerable research on the subject that has been performed by German scholars. After all, it cannot be expected that Soviet-era works would address the issue in a way that takes into account the arguments against the official figures.
A final note regarding the unsolicited review
submitted to H-German by Paul Boytinck in
January 1996: That review gives a skewed
impression of Karner’s book, which deals only
tangentially with the problem that preoccupies
Boytinck -- the issue of POW deaths. It is
generally believed that roughly 1.5 million German
prisoners died in captivity in the Soviet Union, the
vast majority between capture and arrival at
"permanent" prisoner of war camps. Arrival at an
exact estimate is complicated by the chaotic nature
of the immediate postwar months; the fact that
official Soviet pronouncements on the matter
frequently changed and were thus unreliable; and
the until- recent inaccessibility of Soviet archives.
Karner’s archival research, which deals only with
GUPVI (which administered the permanent camps
as well as temporary collection points at the front)
cannot shed any light here. The registration of
prisoners did not occur until they had reached the
permanent camps, so Karner can only provide the
official GUPVI figure of 356,687 German
prisoners who died from illness and other causes
while in the permanent camps (79). This figure
leaves roughly a million missing soldiers.
In Russia many documents from archive GUPVI are published.
I, for example, have a collection of documents in three volumes, on 500 pages in each volume.
I wish to emphasize especially, that in the collection only documents, the author's text there practically is absent.
Therefore I have an idea clearly enough about a subject of conversation.

Under documents it is visible, that communiques of the Soviet Government about position captured in the USSR are characterized by a high degree of reliability and accuracy.
Available mistakes were insignificant and had technical character. No deliberate disinformation in the Soviet messages is present.
The one who makes bold to approve back, has all chances of sitting down to get in a pool.

After the soldier of the opponent was taken prisoner, it sent on an assembly point of reception captured.
Thus for Germans, the Austrians, Danes, Dutchs, Norwegians, Finns and Spaniards an escort allocated without fail.
And here, for the Romanian, Hungarians, Poles, Czech, Frenchmen, Slovaks and other Europeans the escort, as a rule, was not appointed. Captured these nationalities followed on an assembly point independently, under direction of one of the officers or corporals.

On an assembly point captured were sorted. The one who has been wounded, whenever possible, went to hospital.
Under the instruction it was necessary wounded men and patients to go in hospital on treatment.
The instruction forbade wounded captured to send in road.
From documents it is visible, that this requirement of the instruction was not always carried out.
It is visible, as, that high instances constantly reminded the subordinates of necessity to observe these requirements of the instruction.
All quite often together with healthy captured in a way was sent also by those who was wounded or strongly sick.
It is natural, that in a way wounded men and patients captured could die.
The account of this category died captured was not such exact, as the account of fatal cases in stationary camps.

However, it does not mean, that it was impossible to define what exponent of those who has died along the line to stationary camps.
When captured sent from time camp in stationary camp it was informed on telegraph.
In the message date and a departure time, and as the general number captured were specified.
On arrival of an echelon to destination defined quantity arrived in an echelon captured.
The certificate of reception-transfer was made.

The European researchers confuse the readers when declare, that as if not it is impossible to define number captured which have died in a way between time camp and stationary camp.
It is natural, that it is impossible to define this number to within one person as it takes place for stationary camps.
However to estimate approximately this number quite under force to everyone who really wishes to know the truth.

According to calculations Russian researchers in a way has died up to 240,0 thousand captured German and Austrian the soldier of the opponent.
In view of 356,687 person which have died in stationary camps, we have, that in a captivity has died about 600,0 thousand Germans and the Austrians.
Except for it has died still in total about 200,0 thousand captured other nationalities.
Total in the USSR has died 0,8 million captured Europeans.

In the Soviet documents the facts of cruel treatment to captured Germans from Russian the soldier and officers are fixed. However, if about such cases of an arbitrariness in relation to captured learned higher instance concerning admitted offence applied punishment, and, sometimes down to execution.
Differently, in the USSR the facts of display of cruelty in relation to captured Germans took place.
However, in the USSR there was no system of destruction of captured Germans.
Very much the other way, the system demanded that captured was the healthy person.
The system of destruction has another internally the maintenance, not such as was available in GUPVI.

During war the system of destruction captured was
Only there was this system not in the USSR, and there was this system in the Europe.
Among those 8, 6 million soldier and officers of Red Army who are registered on victims during GPW, those are considered also 3,0 million person which Europeans have destroyed in camps for captured.

The number captured from both parties (for Red Army and for Europeans) is approximately identical: roughly on 4,5 million person.
For the USSR it is had: 0,8 million died and victims in a captivity of Europeans
For the Europe it is had: 3,0 million died and victims Soviet (mainly, Russian) the soldier and officers
These figures evidently define a level of barbarity the shown each party during war.

If Europeans are excited with what parity between a death-roll in fight the soldier and officers Red Army and a death-roll in fights of Europeans it is necessary to act as follows was.
For Red Army: from 8,6 million to subtract 3,0 million that gives number 5,6 of one million victims in fight.
For the European armies: from 5,5 million to take away 0,8 million that gives number 4,7 of one million victims in fight. For Germany and Italy it is necessary to subtract as about 0,3 million person which were lost till June, 22nd, 1941 and in fights with Anglo-Americans in Northern Africa, Italy, France and Atlantic.

So we have:
5,6 million victims the soldier and officers of Red Army
4,4 million victims the soldier and officers of the European armies.

/

Yuri

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Qvist
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#10

Post by Qvist » 22 Jun 2006, 08:13

Hi Yuri,

Well, there is not really much more I can add to the prisoner issue, except to note that most researchers do not agree with you that that the Red Army was successful in recording its prisoners in 1945 with accuracy.

I must point out an opposition between these two points:
Under documents it is visible, that communiques of the Soviet Government about position captured in the USSR are characterized by a high degree of reliability and accuracy.
According to calculations Russian researchers in a way has died up to 240,0 thousand captured German and Austrian the soldier of the opponent.
In view of 356,687 person which have died in stationary camps, we have, that in a captivity has died about 600,0 thousand Germans and the Austrians.
That means that later research has adjusted the figure of POW deaths upwards by about 40%, compared to the GUPVI figure that for many years was given as the official figure. This being so, it seems difficult to say that the communiques of the soviet Gvt concerning the position was very reliable or accurate.
If Europeans are excited with what parity between a death-roll in fight the soldier and officers Red Army and a death-roll in fights of Europeans it is necessary to act as follows was.
For Red Army: from 8,6 million to subtract 3,0 million that gives number 5,6 of one million victims in fight.
For the European armies: from 5,5 million to take away 0,8 million that gives number 4,7 of one million victims in fight. For Germany and Italy it is necessary to subtract as about 0,3 million person which were lost till June, 22nd, 1941 and in fights with Anglo-Americans in Northern Africa, Italy, France and Atlantic.

So we have:
5,6 million victims the soldier and officers of Red Army
4,4 million victims the soldier and officers of the European armies.

Firstly, I am afraid I do not understand the nature of your calculation here. Why subtract 3 million from 8.6? Or 0.8 from 5.5?
Secondly, here I can only refer you back to that 12-page discussion. There was no parity in casualties, nor anything near it - the total military losses - dead, wounded and missing - of the RKKA were some 28 million, which is three to four times more than the German. That also says something about the accuracy of the deaths figures quoted above.

cheers

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Yuri
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#11

Post by Yuri » 23 Jun 2006, 09:17

Hi Qvist,
Qvist wrote: Firstly, I am afraid I do not understand the nature of your calculation here. Why subtract 3 million from 8.6? Or 0.8 from 5.5?
1). 3.0 million this quantity of Russian the soldier which Europeans have killed not on a battlefield, and in the European camps for captured.
2). 0,8 million this quantity of Europeans which Russian have killed not on a battlefield, and in camps for captured.
Secondly, here I can only refer you back to that 12-page discussion.
12 pages are more similar the championship on rhetoric, than to discussion.
As I already spoke earlier, my knowledge of English language do not allow me to take part in competitions on rhetoric.
Therefore I should will be limited to ascertaining of figures and the facts.

The facts speak that:

From 0,8 million the Europeans who have lost in a captivity at Russian the most part has died of wounds and from illnesses.

From 3,0 million Russian victims in a captivity at Europeans, the most part has been killed because these people were Russian.
There was no parity in casualties, nor anything near it - the total military losses - dead, wounded and missing - of the RKKA were some 28 million, which is three to four times more than the German. That also says something about the accuracy of the deaths figures quoted above.
Russian was not affairs up to that, how many among the European aggressors was Germans, Austrians, Frenchmen, Poles, Italians, Yugoslavs, Finns, Czechs, Slovaks, Belgians, Dutchs, Danes, Luxembourg, Spaniards, Romanian, Hungarians and the other nations of Europeans.
From the point of view of Russian it is a problem of Europeans.
Russian have executed the problem - their enemy has been smashed.

cheers,
Yuri

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#12

Post by Qvist » 23 Jun 2006, 09:39

Yuri,

I wish you would stop referring to this as "Europeans" when what you are actually referring to is "the axis powers". Those of us who come from European countries who fought the Germans might find it a little strange otherwise.
1). 3.0 million this quantity of Russian the soldier which Europeans have killed not on a battlefield, and in the European camps for captured.
2). 0,8 million this quantity of Europeans which Russian have killed not on a battlefield, and in camps for captured.
Neither the number of Soviet soldiers who died in captivity, the number of axis soldiers who died in captivity, the number of Soviet servicemen who lost their lives or the number of axis servicemen who lost their lives have been established with any finality, but reamin problematical and fundamentally contended entities. The best that can be said of the figures you quote here is that they are no exception in this regard. Also of course, not all Axis soldiers who died did so on the Eastern Front.
12 pages are more similar the championship on rhetoric, than to discussion.
Then you cannot have read it very attentively. The quality of such a long thread is of course uneven, but it does contain some close analysis of f.e. Krivosheev's chapter on German losses, and also a great deal of data from different German documentation.
Russian was not affairs up to that, how many among the European aggressors was Germans, Austrians, Frenchmen, Poles, Italians, Yugoslavs, Finns, Czechs, Slovaks, Belgians, Dutchs, Danes, Luxembourg, Spaniards, Romanian, Hungarians and the other nations of Europeans.
From the point of view of Russian it is a problem of Europeans.
Russian have executed the problem - their enemy has been smashed.
I thought "the problem" was to try and gain a better understanding of the war by determining accurate and valid data for it.

cheers

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Yuri
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#13

Post by Yuri » 23 Jun 2006, 19:58

Hi,
Qvist!

1. If for you it is not pleasant to use a word "Europeans" for me there are no problems to name it as be differently.
On-Russian it sounds so:
Name though a pot, only in an oven do not put.
I do not know, whether there can be here an adequate transfer on English.
Therefore I shall tell to you, that in this phrase there is nothing insulting.

2. However, " the Axis Powers " cannot be accepted by Russian.
The reason for it very simple.
This does not cover all of force which operated in war with the Soviet Unions and his Red Army. Far not all.
At least it is necessary to recognize it.
And about words always it is possible will agree.
Problem not in words, a problem in the contents which carry these words.
I thought "the problem" was to try and gain a better understanding of the war by determining accurate and valid data for it.
It will be already a problem of this day, it is a problem of present generation of people.
At the decision of this problem you can count on our complete support.
Russian archives are opened, use, please.

From itself is personally ready to assist, than in my forces.

/

Yuri

Michate
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#14

Post by Michate » 25 Jun 2006, 15:25

Of the axis soldiers captured on Eastern front before 1944, 70% died, IIRC.

Of the Germans captured there in 1941/42 the death rate was over 90%.

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Yuri
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#15

Post by Yuri » 25 Jun 2006, 19:05

Michate wrote:Of the axis soldiers captured on Eastern front before 1944, 70% died, IIRC.

Of the Germans captured there in 1941/42 the death rate was over 90%.
Hi, Michate

Whether and it is impossible to learn a source of Your data.

/
udachi / Good luck!

Yuri

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