Turkish losses
Turkish losses
Ottoman/Turkish losses:
Italo-Turkish War 1911-1912(According to Wikipedia)
Killed,dead 14,000
Wounded 5,370
Balkan Wars 1912-1913(According to Erickson)
Killed 50,000
Died of disease 75,000
Wounded 100,000
Pows 115,000
WW1 1914-1918(According to Erickson)
Killed,dead,missing 305,085
Died of disease 466,759
Wounded 303,150
Pows 145,104
Deserters 500,000
Greco-Turkish War 1919-1922(According to Wikipedia)
Killed,dead 20,450
Wounded 10,000
Total 1911-1922 (excluding Pows,deserters)
Killed,dead,missing 389,535
Died of disease 541,759
Wounded 418,520
Total 1,349,814
Italo-Turkish War 1911-1912(According to Wikipedia)
Killed,dead 14,000
Wounded 5,370
Balkan Wars 1912-1913(According to Erickson)
Killed 50,000
Died of disease 75,000
Wounded 100,000
Pows 115,000
WW1 1914-1918(According to Erickson)
Killed,dead,missing 305,085
Died of disease 466,759
Wounded 303,150
Pows 145,104
Deserters 500,000
Greco-Turkish War 1919-1922(According to Wikipedia)
Killed,dead 20,450
Wounded 10,000
Total 1911-1922 (excluding Pows,deserters)
Killed,dead,missing 389,535
Died of disease 541,759
Wounded 418,520
Total 1,349,814
Supporting analysis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Mu ... orld_War_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Mu ... orld_War_I
Turkish peasantry of Anatolia had dropped to 40% of the pre-war levels
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Mate,
I am unsure but I think most armies in the world have some slogan with the defence forces.
USA has there little bits "Land off the brave home of the free".
I don't know about our (aussie Army) but we may have some thing also.
There notting wrong with taking pride in your homelands armed forces, weather its Bulgaria or Turkey or any other nation.
I served along side the Turks in Bosnia and my father did in Korea and we have many good words about their army.
S.B
I am unsure but I think most armies in the world have some slogan with the defence forces.
USA has there little bits "Land off the brave home of the free".
I don't know about our (aussie Army) but we may have some thing also.
There notting wrong with taking pride in your homelands armed forces, weather its Bulgaria or Turkey or any other nation.
I served along side the Turks in Bosnia and my father did in Korea and we have many good words about their army.
S.B
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Earlier today, I decided to key in "1922" in the Turkish Daily News website in the hope of finding any information on the events of 1922 in Smyrna/Izmir when I came across this:
Source: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=66262
(After all, who remembers the Ottoman Muslims?, by Mustafa Akyol,Thursday, February 15, 2007)
Thanks,
Nick
Without knowing anything about the reported author (I remember a thread in our Holocaust and War Crimes section that this author was at the heart of a debate between a few members of AHF), the numbers are depressingly high. If anyone has read this book, does McCarthy cite the numbers of deaths in the period which we are dealing with here? Do they stack up with those numbers that our Moderator has tallied in the original post?In his 1996 book, “Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims: 1821-1922,” historian Justin McCarthy wrote much about that oft-neglected side. He revealed that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered 5.5 million dead and 5 million refugees, a fact he deems Europe's largest loss of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War.
Source: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=66262
(After all, who remembers the Ottoman Muslims?, by Mustafa Akyol,Thursday, February 15, 2007)
Thanks,
Nick
Nick,
Just checked my files.Here's McCarthy's figures,note we are talking about Muslim civilians here,not military losses as in my original post:
Greek War of Independence 1821
25,000 dead 10,000 refugees
Caucasian War 1827-1829
26,000 refugees
Crimean Expulsion(1859-1861)
75,000 dead 300,000 refugees
Caucasian Expulsion(1859-1864)
400,000 dead 1,200,000 refugees
Bulgarian War 1877-1878
260,000 dead 515,000 refugees
Caucasus 1877-1878
70,000 refugees
Balkan Wars 1912-1913
1,450,000 dead 410,000 refugees
Eastern Anatolia 1914-1921
1,190,000 dead 900,000 refugees
Caucasus 1914-1921
410,000 dead 270,000 refugees
Western Anatolia 1914-1922
1,250,000 dead 480,000 refugees
Internal refugees 1914-1922
1,200,000 refugees
Unknown/dead
440,000 estimated unknown deaths and refugees deaths
This gives around 5,500,000 dead and 5,000,000 refugees between 1821-1922(refugee figures are sometimes those that set out,not those that arrived safely).McCarthy extimates that around one fifth of Ottoman Muslims were from refugee stock in 1922,a "melting pot" of Turks,former Tartars,former Caucasian Muslims,Circassians,Bosnians,Albanians,Bulgar Turks,Cretan Muslims,Greek Muslims etc.
The majority of the deaths can be accounted for by disease but massacres did also occur.
regards
Peter
Just checked my files.Here's McCarthy's figures,note we are talking about Muslim civilians here,not military losses as in my original post:
Greek War of Independence 1821
25,000 dead 10,000 refugees
Caucasian War 1827-1829
26,000 refugees
Crimean Expulsion(1859-1861)
75,000 dead 300,000 refugees
Caucasian Expulsion(1859-1864)
400,000 dead 1,200,000 refugees
Bulgarian War 1877-1878
260,000 dead 515,000 refugees
Caucasus 1877-1878
70,000 refugees
Balkan Wars 1912-1913
1,450,000 dead 410,000 refugees
Eastern Anatolia 1914-1921
1,190,000 dead 900,000 refugees
Caucasus 1914-1921
410,000 dead 270,000 refugees
Western Anatolia 1914-1922
1,250,000 dead 480,000 refugees
Internal refugees 1914-1922
1,200,000 refugees
Unknown/dead
440,000 estimated unknown deaths and refugees deaths
This gives around 5,500,000 dead and 5,000,000 refugees between 1821-1922(refugee figures are sometimes those that set out,not those that arrived safely).McCarthy extimates that around one fifth of Ottoman Muslims were from refugee stock in 1922,a "melting pot" of Turks,former Tartars,former Caucasian Muslims,Circassians,Bosnians,Albanians,Bulgar Turks,Cretan Muslims,Greek Muslims etc.
The majority of the deaths can be accounted for by disease but massacres did also occur.
regards
Peter
Sir, you mean those original figures for the Balkan Wars were just combatants ... sorry for the emoticon, but it expresses precisely what I felt when I read your note (not just for the 1912 period, but for this 100 years period. That is the equivalent of one Greece slain and expelled). In the other thread "Siege of Ionia" wherein you listed the casualty figures, I was under the impression that the numbers were inclusive of the civilian population, I had no idea you were referring only to combatants.
Thank you for providing the list. Would I be safe in presuming that such tallies amongst different researchers would differ only in small amounts (for the whole era that McCarthy has pointed out, 1821-1922)? I think I am going to ready myself for some in-depth reading in this whole subject.
Sir, thank you for igniting a greater interest.
Nick
Thank you for providing the list. Would I be safe in presuming that such tallies amongst different researchers would differ only in small amounts (for the whole era that McCarthy has pointed out, 1821-1922)? I think I am going to ready myself for some in-depth reading in this whole subject.
Sir, thank you for igniting a greater interest.
Nick
And what are the sources for these figures? I mean neutral sources...Peter H wrote:Nick,
Just checked my files.Here's McCarthy's figures,note we are talking about Muslim civilians here,not military losses as in my original post:
Greek War of Independence 1821
25,000 dead 10,000 refugees
Caucasian War 1827-1829
26,000 refugees
Crimean Expulsion(1859-1861)
75,000 dead 300,000 refugees
Caucasian Expulsion(1859-1864)
400,000 dead 1,200,000 refugees
Bulgarian War 1877-1878
260,000 dead 515,000 refugees
Caucasus 1877-1878
70,000 refugees
Balkan Wars 1912-1913
1,450,000 dead 410,000 refugees
Eastern Anatolia 1914-1921
1,190,000 dead 900,000 refugees
Caucasus 1914-1921
410,000 dead 270,000 refugees
Western Anatolia 1914-1922
1,250,000 dead 480,000 refugees
Internal refugees 1914-1922
1,200,000 refugees
Unknown/dead
440,000 estimated unknown deaths and refugees deaths
This gives around 5,500,000 dead and 5,000,000 refugees between 1821-1922(refugee figures are sometimes those that set out,not those that arrived safely).McCarthy extimates that around one fifth of Ottoman Muslims were from refugee stock in 1922,a "melting pot" of Turks,former Tartars,former Caucasian Muslims,Circassians,Bosnians,Albanians,Bulgar Turks,Cretan Muslims,Greek Muslims etc.
The majority of the deaths can be accounted for by disease but massacres did also occur.
regards
Peter
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Nikolay
G'day mate
Like Nick, I am pleased that Peter has not only pulled all the disparate sources together but generously published them - a difficult task under any circumstances - but Nikolay, Peter has indicated his sources. They are as god as they get. Yes they are estimates. I doubt very much that McCarthy individually counted every casualty. So on that basis, estimate though it is, it is indicative of the scale of calamety.
Here's the thing Nikolay, if you don't like someone's conclusions, it is time to sit down and do your own work and produce alternative figures. If you feel they exist, do what Peter has just done and collate them first and then publish them here. I would be interested in seeing your research work placed here for us to scrutinise. However, I don't think it is fair for you to ask Peter to do your research work for you. Don't you?
Looking forward to see your alternative figures.
Cheers
Bill
G'day mate
Like Nick, I am pleased that Peter has not only pulled all the disparate sources together but generously published them - a difficult task under any circumstances - but Nikolay, Peter has indicated his sources. They are as god as they get. Yes they are estimates. I doubt very much that McCarthy individually counted every casualty. So on that basis, estimate though it is, it is indicative of the scale of calamety.
Here's the thing Nikolay, if you don't like someone's conclusions, it is time to sit down and do your own work and produce alternative figures. If you feel they exist, do what Peter has just done and collate them first and then publish them here. I would be interested in seeing your research work placed here for us to scrutinise. However, I don't think it is fair for you to ask Peter to do your research work for you. Don't you?
Looking forward to see your alternative figures.
Cheers
Bill