Mythical puukko

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Seppo Koivisto
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Mythical puukko

#1

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 24 Feb 2007, 13:03

About fifteen years ago I was staying in a small hotel in Osnabrück, Germany. When I was signing in, the owner rushed from the back room. "Are you from Finland? I have a bottle of Russian vodka." In no time he had poured me a Schnaps. It appeared, that he had served in the German Army in Lapland during WW2.

On thing he said has buzzled me since. "Finns were the greatest adversaries of communism. They cut the tongues of the communists." He showed with his finger, how tongues were cut from below through the jaw.

Russian soldiers were told, that Finns carve your ears off with their knives. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 10#1016910

Was this the German version of the myth of Finns and their knives, or could there be real events behind this story of tongue cutting Finns?

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Harri
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#2

Post by Harri » 26 Feb 2007, 13:45

I have never heard. Sounds like a Soviet propaganda (or a tale told to Germans by the Finns)?

Just like a case which happened during the Winter War when Finns left deep frozen bodies of Soviet soldiers standing next to encircled Soviet troops. The actual meaning was to shock Soviets to surrender. Soviets although interpreted it in a way that Finns have executed their POWs and this "version" spread among the Soviet soldiers like a fire. Soviet propaganda which told Finns really executed all of their POWs of course made the rumour sound even more "truthful".

Perhaps there is some real happening also behind this German story.


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Landsturm
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#3

Post by Landsturm » 26 Feb 2007, 18:13

I too have never heard of something like that. Of course in war events take place and suddenly grow into common rumor. Soviets were constantly told about Finnish barbaric ways of dealing with the prisoners and many Soviet soldiers killed themselves to avoid being captured.

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Harri
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Re: re

#4

Post by Harri » 25 Jun 2007, 17:10

Baltas wrote:
Hanski wrote:killing a guard silently with a knife
How after that to slice bred with that knife :P
During winter even soft bread most likely would have been hard. And actually Finnish soldiers ate hard rye bread (crispbread) which is not cut by knife.

Soldiers most typically ate porridges, soups and dry food and in front conditions knife was more likely used for many other "tasks".
janner wrote:On a separate note why do some posts seem to have a problem with soldiers killing with knives – they are an effective method of silently neutralising sentries etc. I believe that I must be missing a cultural nuance as a former infanteer reading it straight I’m left thinking: isn’t it what soldiers are supposed to do!
I think it is a common misbelief that Finnish soldiers would have very commonly used knives only for killing enemy soldiers. In desperate situations knives were without doubt used. There is no "Finnish knife killing doctrine" and I doubt if it was taught for ordinary infantry soldiers not to talk about any reservists. Special troops and individual soldiers have used knives in certain occasions but average soldier relied much more on their SMG, rifle, pistol or some explosive and tried to avoid close combat.

-----

It seems again that in this discussion we are in the edge somewhere between the true happenings and Soviet propaganda.
BIGpanzer wrote:I have a very strange role here, with all my respect to Finnish army and Finns
Well, it is always so that if you make unsourced and uncorfirmed claims you bow down to another direction and at the same time you'll stick out your behind to another direction... :wink:

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janner
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#5

Post by janner » 25 Jun 2007, 22:16

I think it is a common misbelief that Finnish soldiers would have very commonly used knives only for killing enemy soldiers. In desperate situations knives were without doubt used. There is no "Finnish knife killing doctrine" and I doubt if it was taught for ordinary infantry soldiers not to talk about any reservists. Special troops and individual soldiers have used knives in certain occasions but average soldier relied much more on their SMG, rifle, pistol or some explosive and tried to avoid close combat.
I understand. Whilst the Finnish puukko seems an ideal woodsman/hunting knife it does not appear particularly suited to silently dispatching sentries. All the anecdotal evidence and photographs point towards throat-cutting and the relatively short, single edged blade design is best suited to this messy and inefficient technique.

Knife killing techniques as employed by specialists are different. Any knife can be used for knife fighting to kill an enemy, but to be suitable for fighting the knife should have double edges at least for the part called the false edge and best of all is a double edged straight blade.

It thus seems unlikely that if the Finnish Army intended to specialise in knife fighting they would leave the troops with the puukko and not design a more suitable tool. It would be a bit like giving a marksman a smoothbore as opposed to rifled barrel.

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Harri
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#6

Post by Harri » 29 Jun 2007, 13:11

janner wrote:It thus seems unlikely that if the Finnish Army intended to specialise in knife fighting they would leave the troops with the puukko and not design a more suitable tool.
Puukko / knife is a personal equipment not issued by the Army. If it had have some "official role" they would have been part of the soldiers' equipment.

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BIGpanzer
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#7

Post by BIGpanzer » 01 Jul 2007, 01:08

"Finns near Moscow" thread at Trizna forum is partially quite interesting, I just finished to translate some parts. As for "long curved knife" - I found one place where one forummember there joked against another who is "fascinated" in Finnish cruelty at battlefields too much - "just imagine, Finns crept towards Soviet positions and pulled their long knifes behind them :lol: "
As for puukko - it was multipurpose knife, good for close combat also, not only for food. I saw quite many WWII photos of Finnish soldiers with puukko, attached to belt, but never saw Finnish soldiers with spoons, forks and other food devices on their belts :lol:

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#8

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 01 Jul 2007, 09:10

I think puukko was even more a tradition and a decoration than a handy tool. Germans wore their medals, Finns a nice puukko. They were country boys, farmers, lumber jacks and hunters. I think for a hunters meal in the forest you don´t need a fork and a spoon, but a puukko and a coffee cup.

For killing people, this is probably the most effective way to use a puukko.
Image
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puukko
http://blogs.ebay.com/superbcoolstuffs/ ... dZ89719017

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#9

Post by Steady » 01 Jul 2007, 12:07

BIGpanzer wrote:"
I saw quite many WWII photos of Finnish soldiers with puukko, attached to belt, but never saw Finnish soldiers with spoons, forks and other food devices on their belts :lol:
That is because the fork-spoon combination was not attached to the belt, it was kept inside a trouser pocket or in the pakki.

http://www.partioaitta.fi/images/kaikki ... hkaksi.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... puussa.jpg

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BIGpanzer
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#10

Post by BIGpanzer » 01 Jul 2007, 12:42

Thanks for the interesting replies, boys!
Seppo Koivisto wrote:
For killing people, this is probably the most effective way to use a puukko.
Interesting way indeed, but remember the historical facts - Swedish surgeons developed several types of scalpels in XVII-XVIII c.c. based on puukko edge shape, Finnish puukko transformed into criminal street knife in Russia in XIX c. because of its convenient handle and optimal edge (so caled finka bacause of its origin, which remains extremelly popular among Russian criminals until now) - I guess that if you ask Russian what Finns invented during the world's history, he answer at first - "Finka, of course" :wink: Just after the Winter war(!) the knife for scouts was developed for RKKA [and used by Soviet scouts during the whole WWII and, probably, till Afghanistan war even], based on straight puukko design also.
In Finland during those times that was necessary equipment for farmer and hunter, of course. I also think that some sources mistake mentioning only puukko on Finnish belts, those could be knives of another design and bayonets also.

Reenactment photo from http://www.north-front.ru/Fotos/Summa%2 ... /sm-18.jpg Wasn't it correct concerning knife?!
Image

Regards, BP

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Juha Tompuri
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#11

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2007, 21:19

Some puukko related posts from: "Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements" thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=122476 were merged to to this puukko related thread.

/Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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#12

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2007, 21:36

BIGpanzer wrote: remember the historical facts - Swedish surgeons developed several types of scalpels in XVII-XVIII c.c. based on puukko edge shape, Finnish puukko transformed into criminal street knife in Russia in XIX c. because of its convenient handle and optimal edge
Is there somewhere something written on it or is this just folklore?
As the edge of puukko is optimal in carving (actually vuolla in Finnish - a word which seems to be absent from at least English?) wood, not human tissue.
BP wrote: I guess that if you ask Russian what Finns invented during the world's history, he answer at first - "Finka, of course"
My guess is that our neighbours would be smarter than rk:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#395057

Regards, Juha

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#13

Post by G:son » 01 Jul 2007, 22:06

Ordinary soldiers would very seldom find themselves in a situation, where a puukko would be the first choise weapon. As pointed out already, a puukko is really just a knife for carving wood, cleansing fish and game and so on, all useful things when you are in the woods.

In actual close combat, not the silent kind, but the kind you might be forced into when you run out of ammo, or a rifle is too clumsy, a bayonet would be better. Or maybe the field spade, which is an excellent weapon in close combat. Of course, a puukko would be much better than being bare handed. :)

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Juha Tompuri
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#14

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Jul 2007, 20:34

As Seppo in the begining of the thread posted, the puukko wasn't mythical only to the enemies of it:

Peter Wilhelm Stahl, Pommituslentäjä ( a Finnish edition of the Kampfflieger zwischen Eismeer und Sahara )
http://www.koalakustannus.fi/kirjat/ilmailu/stahl.htm

Stahl writes about his experiences with Finns:
...We learned several Finnish customs, which were strange to us.
For instance, the significance of a Finnish knife - puukko.
Every man carries this big and robust knife. At the same time it's a symbol and a weapon. Often can be seen expensive, hand made, decorated examples, with hunting related or reindeer decorations.
When a Finn gives a puukko as a gift, that's an expression of most deepest friendship, and resembles even to a oath of loyalty.
...Even we are allied against to a common and terribly enemy, it's still difficult to us to understand the poits of view of each other, For our friends it's about revenging the Russian surprise attack at Winter War 1939-40. Their goal, for which they fought for, was to take back captured Carelia and especially city of Viipuri.
...Their equipment is simple: rifle, pistol and puukko. About supply, they are on their own: fish, game, berries, mushrooms. Or by capturing from the enemy.
...A legend of Finns bringing back cut-off ear of enemy killed is a - legend.
Finns say, laughing, that in addition to the normal package, they don't want to carry an extra rucksack for the off-cut ears.
Regards, Juha

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Re: Mythical puukko

#15

Post by Mangrove » 09 Sep 2010, 07:50

This report the battle of "Sevastopol" base at Karelian Isthmus on July 20th - 21st 1942 contains a mention of close-combat with puukko, first of its kind in the official reports I've seen so far.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3047641

"During fierce close combat fought during dark the land area had to be cleared out meter by meter with hand grenades, bursts from SMGs and puukkos, [...]"
"Pimeässä käytyjen kiivaiden lähitaistelujen jälkeen, jolloin maa-alue oli metri metriltä raivattava käsikranaatein, kp:ien tuli-iskuin ja puukoin, [...]

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