Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

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Alp Guard
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Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#1

Post by Alp Guard » 16 Jan 2008, 12:17

Being interested in American native culture and the history of the indian wars I often wondered, why Custer stopped his charge on the indian village at Little Bighorn, despite the fact that the place where he tried to cross the river was only defended by a handful Sioux and Cheyenne warriors, while most of the others were busy chasing Reno away. Well, here might be the answer, which would make sense to me ( if the eye - witness' comments are correct):

http://www.astonisher.com/archives/muse ... uster.html

If Custer really was killed (or badly wounded) by White Cow Bull at such an early stage of the battle it also makes sense that the 7th cavalry made such an unorganised retreat and was divided into several small groups, which were unable to build up a powerful defense line on top of the rock above little Bighorn river.

Any thoughts about it, or additional informations or sources?

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#2

Post by lwhite » 16 Jan 2008, 20:12

Alp Guard, Check out http://www.littlebighorn.info/ go to message board and you will find what you seek.


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#3

Post by Alp Guard » 17 Jan 2008, 09:21

Iwhite

Thank you for the link

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Alaric
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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#4

Post by Alaric » 03 Apr 2008, 10:43

My belief is that the attack at Ford B was just a feint to relieve pressure on Reno's position near Ford A. He must have fully expected Reno's command along with Benteen (who had received verbal and written orders to bring ammuntion packs up to his position) to come and relieve his battalion. Both of those miserable excuses for officers failed in their duty.

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#5

Post by dennis1313 » 04 Apr 2008, 02:27

hi alaric,
i remember reading somewhere that there was a pro and anti custer groups of officers in the 7th cavalary.
all of the pro custer officers,were with him and killed with him.obviously,reno and benteen were anti custer,and thus resented him.
i agree that they both acted"subpar"in their duties that day,but dont you think that if they did obey their orders to the letter,then except for the company with the pack train,the entire 7th cavalry would have been truly wiped out?
dennis :idea:

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#6

Post by Homer martin » 30 Dec 2008, 13:33

Alp,
I have looked into the Little Big Horn battle for over 40 years, the battle and its many translations of the events fall generally into three fields; Pro Custer, Anti Custer and a simi neutral area (this being the smallest area).

When did Custer died on the field that day?

Most historians place his death from the point after where troop E goes to the ford and just after Czary Horse's famous ride.

A. White Cow Bull can be out right discounted, as Custer was still alive when troop E & F returned from the Minneconjou Ford (Medicine Tail Ford ), as told by Curly who was still on the battle field at the time.

B. Some say Custer may have gone as far as the northern Ford above the Indian village and may have been killed there, while the other 2 troops were retiring from the Minneconjou Ford , this can be discounted by the fact of a number of Indian accounts place a small skirmish action between Last Stand Hill and the Ford that stopped Custer's advance towards that Ford.

C. The most likely time of Custer's death falls not long (about 10-12 mins) after he had placed Calhoun's command on the skirmish line and its collaspe:

Just after Calhoun's command was overrun, Troop I and Keogh had started to retire towards Custer's command and that is when Crazy Horse made his famous ride, and the rout was on as Gall lead his attack that destoryed most of I troop and it is at this point many Indian accounts said Custer was killed by a long shot from the area near where Keogh had been killed.

What shot killed Custer? The one to the heart, the head wound had no blood running down it, remember he was in a sitting position when found.

Where do I fall in the Pro-Anti Custer debate, towards the anti Custer side and here is why:

1st You have to understand the 7th Cavalry's command make up:

Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer

2nd Lt. Henry Moore Harrington Command (Tom was with George)
Troop C (Troop C also falls under Yates' wing in the command)

Captain Yates' Command
Troops E & F

Captain Myles Keogh's Command
Troops I & L

Major Reno's Command
Troops M, A, & G

Sr. Captain Benteen's Command
Troops H, D, & K

Captain Thomas McDougall's Command
Troop B (the pack train)

2nd. Custer had sent Benteen and his command on a sweeping movement to block any attempt by the Indians to move south, which Benteen and no one else understood. This due to the command riding up and down hills with no Indians anywhere to be seen and over 5 miles from Reno's action.

This was a major mistake by Custer, he divided his command into 2 parts without full knowledge of the number and size of the Indian village.

He now has near 1/3 of strength out of action and he has not meet any minor Indian band yet.

3rd. Custer then makes the plan of attack, he sends Reno's command across Reno's Ford to attack the Southern end of the Indian village while saying he will follow and support Reno.

How Custer has divided his command once again and is down to near 1/3 the of the whole 7th Cavalry strength and he has yet to meet the enemy in battle that day.

Reno and Benteen both know full well about Custer's lack of support in action, see the Washita River action.

This is when Custer takes Yates and Keogh's Command up the medice trail and not following Reno to offer close support.

As can be seen Custer how has his command divided into 3 parts and Reno is over 12-15 minutes away from support by Custer, Benteen is over 5 miles away which is over 20 minutes away from Reno.

4th. Custer from Weir's point saw Reno stop and form his skirmish line and may have later seen him pull back to the tree line.

The Indians had spotted Custer's command at this point in the action.


5th. Custer divides the command once again sending Yates' command to the Minneconjou Ford, he now has his command in 4 parts and only has the one message going to Benteen for aid.

Yates retires from the Minneconjou Ford back to Custer, while he (Custer) has placed Keogh's command in a L shape skirmish line. This was to support Yates' retirement and to command the Ford crossing.

Once again you can see he has the command in 4 parts and that L shape skirmish line is to far away to be supported by fire from Custer's position near Last Stand Hill.

To say Custer had a laspe in judgement is an understatement, he at this point has Indians to his front, rear, and flank.

Lakota Noon by Michno is a poor reconstruction of the Indian accounts of the battle, as he has near every Indian on the field in front of Custer.

Points of interest:
2nd Lt. Henry Moore Harrington almost got away from Last Stand Hill and the battle field. He made it near 6-8 miles away and shot himself in the head, there are over 4 Indian account of this action.

Dustin and I both think one soldier did make it off Last Stand Field that day.

Curly's account is the best, which would have surprised many of the older historians and 7th Cavalry vetearns of the battle.

John S. Gray and I both support Curly's account of the action.

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#7

Post by Pitino » 30 Dec 2008, 14:14

I have always heard that Custer was killed by Rain In The Face, but have never found any proof. Does anyone know if this is correct or have any info on the topic?
Pitino

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#8

Post by Homer martin » 30 Dec 2008, 14:23

Rain In the Face killed Tom Custer.

Tom Custer had beat up Rain in the Face, when he had been arrested, Rain in the Face lead the attack that pushed E troop, Dr Lord and Mitch (he was already wouned at this point) towards the Deep Ravine.

In that attack Rain in the Face smashed in Tom skull's from behind with a war club.

This is also why Michno's Lakota Noon does not work, as Rain in the Face's attack came from the other side of Last Stand Hill and not from the front, as E troop was forced toward the Deep Ravine and not the other way over the hill.

This is also when 2nd Lt. Henry Harrington and 4-5 troops mounted and rode towards the east and safety.

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#9

Post by Pitino » 30 Dec 2008, 14:54

Homer martin wrote:Rain In the Face killed Tom Custer.

Tom Custer had beat up Rain in the Face, when he had been arrested, Rain in the Face lead the attack that pushed E troop, Dr Lord and Mitch (he was already wouned at this point) towards the Deep Ravine.

In that attack Rain in the Face smashed in Tom skull's from behind with a war club.

This is also why Michno's Lakota Noon does not work, as Rain in the Face's attack came from the other side of Last Stand Hill and not from the front, as E troop was forced toward the Deep Ravine and not the other way over the hill.

This is also when 2nd Lt. Henry Harrington and 4-5 troops mounted and rode towards the east and safety.
Homer,
Fantistic info and much apprediated!!!
Pitino

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#10

Post by The_Enigma » 30 Dec 2008, 15:06

Homer martin wrote:...
Intresting stuff.

Am not to sure if this deviates from what you have said since i know practically nothing about this other than the myth and some documatry i watched the other day.

The doc made out that on finding the village Custer sent Reno in, told him he would be behind him. Following which, after Reno has moved on, he spots a force of Indians to his front and chases after them into the hills.

Sort of at the same time Reno begins his attack, the women and children flee from the village - which Custer sees and heads for the river to take hostages, which would force the Indians hand to give up ( :? ). Several attempts to find a crossing are unsuccessful when the Indians pour across the river, Custer orders his men to dismount - during this event the attacking Indians manage to force the horses to flee and Custer orders his men to pull back to the hill (last stand hill?).

By this time Renos attack has failed and he retreats to his own named hill, but once the sound of battle is heard from Custers position the Indians brake off to go fight there thus encircling his position. The documantry went on to say that Custer attempted a counterattack to clear his hill, which failed and soon resistance collasped.

Do you find what the doc to have stated to be fairly accurate?

Although the documentry did seem somewhat bias agaisnst Reno and Benteen and implied that they basically left Custer and his men to their fate. Do you have an opinion on this?

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#11

Post by Alp Guard » 30 Dec 2008, 15:11

Thank you very much, Homer

These are very interesting answers to my questions.

Not being a expert like you (although I also read my first book on the battle 40 years ago), I just dare to make two remarks:

1. According to other crow scouts ( i.e. White Man Runs Him), Curly, whose eyewitness testimony counts a lot amongst the (white) historians, was NOT present during Custers attack. According to his friends he had good reasons to disappear just at the beginning of the battle, because he was stealing ungarded Lakota horses.

2. If your information is correct (I don't doubt it), and there was no blood at Custer's temple, that would probably mean, that he was dead long before he got the shot there. Probably there is a forensic specialist in this forum.

I'm not anti-Custer, nor pro-Custer. I'm just fascinated about this battle, since I heard of it the first time in 1969. I wish I could once in a lifetime visit the battlefield.

Thank you again for your answer

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#12

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Dec 2008, 15:36

Alp Guard wrote: 1. According to other crow scouts ( i.e. White Man Runs Him), Curly, whose eyewitness testimony counts a lot amongst the (white) historians, was NOT present during Custers attack. According to his friends he had good reasons to disappear just at the beginning of the battle, because he was stealing ungarded Lakota horses.
A study of what Curly actualy said (rather than what people say he said) shows he never claimed to be part of Custer's attack. He describes watching from some distance.
That said there will never be a definitive answer to the troopers movements or actions. Every couple of years a new book comes out that alters the timeline or locations of the stands.
As there were no cavalry survivors then it is no suprise that all these myths and errors keep being raked over. It is not any kind of mystery. The Indian acounts do not conform to western perceptions of time and reality. The 2 versions can never be reconciled.

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#13

Post by The_Enigma » 30 Dec 2008, 16:03

Supossidly, according to this documantry i watched the other day whose name i do not recall sorry, states that there was a civillian reporter with Custer, who was killed during the retreat to Last Stand Hill; he had been documenting what had took place so he could write it up for the papers and his notes were found on the battlefield.

Any chance anyone know who he was - prehaps his notes would give a better idea on why decissions were taken.

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#14

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Dec 2008, 16:10

Mark Kellogg from the Bismark Tribune

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kellogg_(reporter)

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Re: Who killed Custer; and WHEN?

#15

Post by Homer martin » 30 Dec 2008, 16:23

The_Enigma,
Custer's command did not run into any Indians moving up Medicine Tail,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SimoyJp ... re=related

when he reached the tail split that is when he divided the command, with Yates going towards the Minneconjou Crossing; and Custer moving up towards Luce Ridge at that time with C, I & L.

When Yates' command turned back at the Minneconjou Crossing and returned to Custer, is when Curly left the command; and Captain Myles Keogh's Command troops I & L were deployed in the L shape skirmish line. With L being put in line first and I in reserve, it is not until the Indians start crossing in mass was I deplayed by Keogh and it was to late then.

The only fighting (Custer's command) done up to this point was the 8 or so Indians who had fired on E troop trying to cross the Ford.

The Ford:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQxFRTH ... re=related

Also not only was Custer wearing a buckskin jacket that day, a number of other officer's and civilians had buckskin on.

So I doubt the documantry was even close to being accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAlQS3Fp-zE

See how far the Ford is from Calhoun Hill?

Watch the Keogh Sector collaspe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiMjI971 ... re=related

the second half:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gda5y0ve ... re=related

Are you getting an idea to the distance of this fight and Custer's deployment and how no one was able to support the other command.

Looking at Ford D or the northern Ford:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8GCEg30 ... re=related

The person doing this is great, but the civilians at the point in his video are on the other side of the river, with warriors between the Ford and Last Stand Hill.

It is not until Custer with Yates' command moves off Last Stand Hill towards the northern Ford are Indians ran into on the tail. That small skirmish forced Custer and the command back towards Last Stand Hill. *

That small shirmish would have been likely with Two Moons and Rain in the Face forces.


* This movement may have only been made with troop C, it is at this point in the battle we have the least amount of information on what is Custer doing, as most Indians are talking about Calhoun.
Last edited by Homer martin on 30 Dec 2008, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

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