Sat Apr 13, 8:06 PM ET
By TONY CZUCZKA, Associated Press Writer
BERLIN - Nearly 60 years after Nazi elite SS troops massacred hundreds of civilians in a cluster of Italian villages, Germany's president plans to commemorate the victims in a long-delayed act of reconciliation.
President Johannes Rau's gesture next week coincides with new attempts by prosecutors and journalists to track down Nazi troops who committed atrocities in Italy, some of whom are believed to be still alive in Germany.
...
view the full story
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... massacre_1
[/url]
German president to atone for Nazi massacre on trip to Italy
-
formerly known as HETMAN
- Member
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 08:32
- Location: Polska Rzeczpospolita
-
formerly known as HETMAN
- Member
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 08:32
- Location: Polska Rzeczpospolita
-
michael mills
- Member
- Posts: 9000
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
- Location: Sydney, Australia
This story is an example of the way history is distorted.
During 1944, a vicious civil war raged in Northern Italy between mainly Communist partisans and forces of the Italian Social Republic of Mussolini, assisted by German police formations. Atrocities were committed by both sides.
Most German forces in Italy were involved in fighting Allied forces. The combatting of partisans was left mainly to Mussolini's forces.
Where the article refers to SS, it most probably means German police formations, which by 1944 had largely been absorbed into the SS.
The distortion of history arises from the fact that it is only the atrocities committed by German or Italian Fascist forces that are commemorated, while those of the Communist partisans, committed against those they considered collaborators, are consigned to the archives. Where German forces did commit atrocities, they were almost always reprisals for attacks by partisans, who of course concealed themselves among the civilian population.
During 1944, a vicious civil war raged in Northern Italy between mainly Communist partisans and forces of the Italian Social Republic of Mussolini, assisted by German police formations. Atrocities were committed by both sides.
Most German forces in Italy were involved in fighting Allied forces. The combatting of partisans was left mainly to Mussolini's forces.
Where the article refers to SS, it most probably means German police formations, which by 1944 had largely been absorbed into the SS.
The distortion of history arises from the fact that it is only the atrocities committed by German or Italian Fascist forces that are commemorated, while those of the Communist partisans, committed against those they considered collaborators, are consigned to the archives. Where German forces did commit atrocities, they were almost always reprisals for attacks by partisans, who of course concealed themselves among the civilian population.
-
formerly known as HETMAN
- Member
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 08:32
- Location: Polska Rzeczpospolita
-
mike262752
- Member
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 11:35
- Location: California, USA
What happend to "catching the bastards". Now you'll settle for an "Im sorry"?HETMAN wrote:In that case, both sides should apologize. Why not?
Regards,
HETMAN
I think its ridiculous that people are still tracking down little old men for something they might have done 60 years ago. Most of them probably only have a few years left anyways, probably living in fear of being "discovered".
While all the Russians that killed and raped women and children are probably collecting checks.
mike
-
formerly known as HETMAN
- Member
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 08:32
- Location: Polska Rzeczpospolita
mike262752 wrote:What happend to "catching the bastards". Now you'll settle for an "Im sorry"?HETMAN wrote:In that case, both sides should apologize. Why not?
Regards,
HETMAN
I think its ridiculous that people are still tracking down little old men for something they might have done 60 years ago. Most of them probably only have a few years left anyways, probably living in fear of being "discovered".
While all the Russians that killed and raped women and children are probably collecting checks.
mike
What the hell is your problem? You choke on a Polish sausage or something?
Yeh, they should catch the bastards. I don't care if they're little, old, or whatever. They should pay.
And for me, the most important thing is that they catch the bastards who mureded my people. I'm sure the Germans are capable of standing up for their own justice, so I'll leave that up to them.
Regards,
HETMAN
-
mike262752
- Member
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 11:35
- Location: California, USA
Never mind me, let's stick to the matter at hand.mike262752 wrote:what is it you want, an apology or them behind bars? You keep contradicting yourself.
"You choke on a Polish sausage or something?"
how old are you?
I was not contradicting myself. Wanting both an apology and damanding that the criminals be caught is NOT a contradiction. An aoplogy from the German government would compliment any efforts to find the perpetrators. What don't you uinderstand about that, friend?
What about the Polish bastards who stormed into Danzig and raped/killed/pillaged ETHNIC German POLISH citizens in 1939? I'm not posting this to minimalize any war-crime. On the contrary, I think your post did exactly that.And for me, the most important thing is that they catch the bastards who mureded my people.
Sorry if I've sturred up anything...
Not at all. Stir up as much of anything as you like. We're all friends here.Wehr2 wrote:What about the Polish bastards who stormed into Danzig and raped/killed/pillaged ETHNIC German POLISH citizens in 1939? I'm not posting this to minimalize any war-crime. On the contrary, I think your post did exactly that.And for me, the most important thing is that they catch the bastards who mureded my people.
Sorry if I've sturred up anything...
However, I'm not really aware of what you're talking about. The two main incidents I'm aware of in Gdansk in '39 are the HEROIC defence of the Polish Post Office by heavily outnumbered postal workers, and the similarly HEROIC defence of Westerplatte by heavily outnumbered members of the magnificent Polish defence force.
So, if you do have something new for me, then please share it here with all of us. I have but one condition: the source you provide must be an independent one, and not something connected to Polish German or revisionist groups. Any well respected historian will do. Cheers big ears.
Regards,
HETMAN
-
Robert Murphy
- Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 20 Apr 2002, 06:36
- Location: Seattle, WA
Sirs,
"What about the Polish bastards who stormed into Danzig and raped/killed/pillaged ETHNIC German POLISH citizens in 1939?"
This--along with the SS's staging of an act of Polish agrression--is nearly exactly the same sort of BS that Goebbels was feeding the German people. Poland proportionately suffered worse than any other country on the face of the Globe over the course of the Second World War. At least 20% of her population was killed durinbg the War. That means (DUH!) one pole in five who was alive during the years 1939-1945.
As for Russian atrocities, what the Eastern Germans were subjected to was atrocious, horriffic, and despicable. But it is in no way apologistic nor is it callous to point out that the Russians were invading a country which had invaded Russia without provocation, who had slaughtered millions of its people under almost incredibly barbaric policies of occupation, and who had allowed (when it did nor summarily execute) 3.3 million out of 5.5 million Russian prisoners to die in captivity. OK, lets get into arguments like, oh, a good portion of these prisoners died of disease because they had not been properly immunized, or that the Wehrmacht never expected to capture so goddarn many! SO WHAT!? The German Army--under the complete control of der Fuhrer--intiated a war in the East which was fought with unprecedented brutality (at least in its scale) and--again, while the atrocities committed by Soviet troops were absolutely despicable--what was done in Germany as the Soviets invaded was surely understandable, although in no way excusable.
I should also say that I admire Germany today, and that Germany has most admirably atoned for its conduct in WWII. (Contrast the Germans with the Japanese, who simply pretend that now war crimes ever happenned.) President Rau's gesture to the Italians is only further evidence of Germany's sincere regret for the cimes of WWII, and Germany today is a powerful force for democracy and peace; Germany today is now indeed a nation of "poets and philosophers."
Yes, such atrocities as Dresden and Hamburg need be noted by all historians as acts of Western Allied barbarity. The savagely malevolent nature of the regime which ruled Germany from 1933-1945 does in no way justify them. Yet they do not change the fact that the United Nations were fighting a war against a power which, had it acheived victory, would have plunged the World into a second Dark Age.
Cheers,
Robert
"What about the Polish bastards who stormed into Danzig and raped/killed/pillaged ETHNIC German POLISH citizens in 1939?"
This--along with the SS's staging of an act of Polish agrression--is nearly exactly the same sort of BS that Goebbels was feeding the German people. Poland proportionately suffered worse than any other country on the face of the Globe over the course of the Second World War. At least 20% of her population was killed durinbg the War. That means (DUH!) one pole in five who was alive during the years 1939-1945.
As for Russian atrocities, what the Eastern Germans were subjected to was atrocious, horriffic, and despicable. But it is in no way apologistic nor is it callous to point out that the Russians were invading a country which had invaded Russia without provocation, who had slaughtered millions of its people under almost incredibly barbaric policies of occupation, and who had allowed (when it did nor summarily execute) 3.3 million out of 5.5 million Russian prisoners to die in captivity. OK, lets get into arguments like, oh, a good portion of these prisoners died of disease because they had not been properly immunized, or that the Wehrmacht never expected to capture so goddarn many! SO WHAT!? The German Army--under the complete control of der Fuhrer--intiated a war in the East which was fought with unprecedented brutality (at least in its scale) and--again, while the atrocities committed by Soviet troops were absolutely despicable--what was done in Germany as the Soviets invaded was surely understandable, although in no way excusable.
I should also say that I admire Germany today, and that Germany has most admirably atoned for its conduct in WWII. (Contrast the Germans with the Japanese, who simply pretend that now war crimes ever happenned.) President Rau's gesture to the Italians is only further evidence of Germany's sincere regret for the cimes of WWII, and Germany today is a powerful force for democracy and peace; Germany today is now indeed a nation of "poets and philosophers."
Yes, such atrocities as Dresden and Hamburg need be noted by all historians as acts of Western Allied barbarity. The savagely malevolent nature of the regime which ruled Germany from 1933-1945 does in no way justify them. Yet they do not change the fact that the United Nations were fighting a war against a power which, had it acheived victory, would have plunged the World into a second Dark Age.
Cheers,
Robert
"Direct democracy is founded upon the notion that the people know what is best for them, and deserve to get it. Good and hard."
-H.L. Mencken
[email protected]
-H.L. Mencken
[email protected]
German Bundes Präsident Johannes Rau with his commemoration trip to Italy is nothing else but a political opportunist and a louse.
There was an article in the German magazine ‘Der Spiegel’ about this last week. According to it there were about 23 000 Italian civilians killed in retaliation to sabotage actions commited by civilians.
‘Der Spiegel’ callet it: NS (Nazi) – Crimes.
At present SS-Obersturmbannführer Friedrich Engel, 93, is on trial in Hamburg. He is accused of being responsible for the shooting of 59 civilian hostages.
I am glad that I was not an SS-Officer at that time in Italy, Germany’s allied and axis-partner, who called for Germany’s help when their war effforts in North Africa went sauer, which they got, then they turned around and had their civilians shoot at German soldiers from the back. Nice friends and partners!
In my opinion when civilians fight another army from the back they stop being civilians, they are soldiers without a uniform.
I am also glad not being comandeered to execute civilians. What a lousy job.
And I am glad not having to prosecute or judge in court these SS people 60 years afterwards. Was it not legal then?
A couple of years ago in Vietnam, My Lai,`a group of US soldiers were ambushed from behind by civilians. And they decided to stop this nonsense once and for all and took out the whole population of that village I believe. Who am I sitting now in a comfortable reclining chair, nibbling at some potato chips and making great moral judgements about this? How would I have reacted then there if I wouldhave been in their place?
In all honesty: I don’t know.
There was an article in the German magazine ‘Der Spiegel’ about this last week. According to it there were about 23 000 Italian civilians killed in retaliation to sabotage actions commited by civilians.
‘Der Spiegel’ callet it: NS (Nazi) – Crimes.
At present SS-Obersturmbannführer Friedrich Engel, 93, is on trial in Hamburg. He is accused of being responsible for the shooting of 59 civilian hostages.
I am glad that I was not an SS-Officer at that time in Italy, Germany’s allied and axis-partner, who called for Germany’s help when their war effforts in North Africa went sauer, which they got, then they turned around and had their civilians shoot at German soldiers from the back. Nice friends and partners!
In my opinion when civilians fight another army from the back they stop being civilians, they are soldiers without a uniform.
I am also glad not being comandeered to execute civilians. What a lousy job.
And I am glad not having to prosecute or judge in court these SS people 60 years afterwards. Was it not legal then?
A couple of years ago in Vietnam, My Lai,`a group of US soldiers were ambushed from behind by civilians. And they decided to stop this nonsense once and for all and took out the whole population of that village I believe. Who am I sitting now in a comfortable reclining chair, nibbling at some potato chips and making great moral judgements about this? How would I have reacted then there if I wouldhave been in their place?
In all honesty: I don’t know.