Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

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South
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Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#1

Post by South » 08 May 2009, 17:14

Good afternoon all,

Is anyone familiar with the 19th century Russian Army's thinking and philosophy in re the adoption (development?) of the Smith and Wesson .44 Russian cartridge?

I'm presuming the Czar's requisition of this cartridge was for a specific purpose(s) that the .44 American cartridge could not meet.

Did the shell casing have cyrillic letters ?

Any and all assistance appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Warm regards,

Bob

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#2

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2009, 20:35

Is anyone familiar with the 19th century Russian Army's thinking and philosophy in re the adoption (development?) of the Smith and Wesson .44 Russian cartridge?
Just what I came across a while back on Wiki...

In the early 1870s, General Alexander Gorloff, the military attaché assigned to the Russian Embassy in Washington, D.C., approached Smith & Wesson about the possibility of negotiating a military sales contract for the purchase a large number of Smith & Wesson No. 3 revolvers for the Imperial Russian Army.

However, Gorloff had some reservations about the standard .44 S&W American chambering of the pistol which, similar to today’s .22 long rifle, had an externally lubricated heeled bullet. Gorloff correctly recognized that such ammunition tends to pick up debris and contaminants which erode the bore when fired, so a qualification of the purchase contract was that Smith & Wesson develop an internally lubricated version of their .44 round.

Smith & Wesson did so by reducing the diameter of the .44 bullet to .429 and adding lubrication grooves to its base. This evolutionary improvement became an archetype, influencing future cartridge designs. With improved firearm metallurgy available, Smith and Wesson increased the bullet weight of the new cartridge to 246 grains while retaining a heavy 23 grain blackpowder propellant charge which almost equalled that of the .44 American and produced a muzzle velocity of roughly 750 ft/s. As a result of these changes, the .44 Russian generated a much higher chamber pressure of 12,000 copper units of pressure (CUP) compared to the older .44 American round which generated only 6-8,000 CUP. To prevent the new high-pressure ammunition from being fired in .44 American revolvers with disastrous results, the overall cartridge case length was increased by .02 in to 0.970 in. In addition, the cylinder design of the No. 3 revolver had to be changed from the straight bored .44 American configuration to a stepped arrangement which was .457 in at the rear of the cylinder to accept the case, and narrower from the case shoulder forward to give a tight fit for the smaller bore .44 Russian bullet.


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phylo_roadking
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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#3

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 May 2009, 20:39

Image
The first example on the left with its 2 grooved outside lubricated bullet is a true 'Russian' .44 Russian, headstamped 'n 8 83', the 'n' being the Cyrillic character for 'P', indicating the cartridge was made at the Petersburg government arsenal at St Petersburg. The second cartridge, which has no headstamp, was probably made by Winchester in the 1870s, and has a single grooved outside lubricated bullet. Next is another unheadstamped cartridge, this one a multi-ball load made by the Phoenix Metallic Cartridge Company. Its green paper sabot contains three lead balls. The remaining cartridges all are later production with inside lubricated bullets. The first of these was made by the United States Cartridge Company. The more common .44 Russian cartridges by this company are headstamped 'U.S.' or 'U.S.C. Co. 44 S & W.R.'; this one with 'RUSSIAN' spelled out is a more difficult headstamp to find. The next one was made by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company, and has a 'self lubricating' bullet, recognizable by the three holes in the bullet, through which grease is forced as the bullet moves down the barrel. Technically, I suppose this one might be considered to be an outside lubricated bullet. The next two are of foreign manufacture, the first made by Eley of London, and the second made by Compania Brasileria de Cartuchos S.A. of Sao Paulo, Brazil.

South
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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#4

Post by South » 09 May 2009, 07:19

Dobraye urta Phylo, (Good morning Phylo,)

Most appreciative of material; Spasiba - thank you. The 2 posts answer my question.

To make sure I understand the thinking; the philosophy was that the bullet must be manufactured to preclude collecting debris and contaminants. The cartridge sizing was derivitive to this.

The picture is great! That headstamp with "44 Russian" spelled out is definitely a collector's item.

I didn't see this material on Wiki but this relates more to my poor research skills.

One point re paragraph 1 of the 13:35 post; General Gorloff's approach to Smith and Wesson isn't accurate. If I can find the appropriate section, I'll plan to open a thread on this. I have a file on this era.

Again: Spasiba.

Dasvidanya, (Shasliva [?] My Russian is more limited than my research skills.)

Bob

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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#5

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 May 2009, 22:22

Bob, I'm increasingly finding that Wiki CAN be very useful - there's FAR more on it than people would believe....

BUT you have to constantly remember it's a voluntary-contribution site - articles/contents are titled how the contributor wants! 8O And that is not necessarily coming from the same direction as we would like, or as WE would think when formulating a search!!!! :wink: Sometimes a little tangental thinking is required... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#6

Post by South » 11 May 2009, 09:22

Good morning Phylo,

Agree that Wiki is loaded with much useful information.........

The matter still distills down to a required evaluation.

Eg, there are engineering principles presented in the AHF thread "What If" and the WWII Panama Canal. Without understanding the principles and knowing the authors, I would not know the significance between and among clay, cement and sand.

Is this not the same issue in re history - and political economy ?!

Ronald Reagan said it best: "Trust but verify."

The verification requires consultation with those who've "been there, done that".

Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#7

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 May 2009, 17:54

Without understanding the principles and knowing the authors, I would not know the significance between and among clay, cement and sand.
Bob, some questions are easier to research than other; take equal amounts of each and apply a hamer to observe how they behave! :lol:

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Re: Czarist Russian .44 Cartridge

#8

Post by Alaric » 18 Aug 2010, 23:35

South, here's a little info you might find interesting off the wiki site regarding the Smith & Wesson Model 3 "Russian" model.
Russian Model
Smith & Wesson produced large numbers of the Model 3, in three distinct models, for Tsarist Russia by special order. The first was the 1st Model Russian (the original order design), and the Russian Ordnance Inspector mandated a number of improvements to the design, resulting in the 2nd Model Russian, with a final revision to the Russian design being known as the 3rd Model Russian.

Smith & Wesson nearly went bankrupt as a result of their Russian Contract production, as the Tsarist government assigned a number of engineers and gunsmiths to reverse-engineer the Smith & Wesson design, and then began to produce copies of the revolver—both in their own arsenal at Tula and by contracting other manufacturers in Germany and elsewhere in Europe to manufacture copies of the revolver (a common practice at the time—Webley & Scott's British Bulldog revolver was widely copied by European and American gunsmiths).

The Russian and European copies of the S&W model 3 revolver were generally of very high quality, but considerably cheaper than the S&W produced revolvers. This led to the Tsarist government cancelling the order for significant quantities of Smith & Wesson–made revolvers (which Smith & Wesson had already produced), and delaying (or refusing) payment for the handguns that had already been delivered.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_and_Wesson_Model_3

Historically the .44 Russian cartridge was the first internally lubricated cartridge, and led a rush by ammunition makers to start developing internally lubricated cartridges. It is the parent cartridge of the .44 S&W Special which was introduced commercially in 1907 and the .44 Remington Magnum introduced in 1956. I used to own an antique Model 3 Russian model, which had been nickel plated (with the nickel peeling a little) and Cyrillic lettering, but had to sell it a few years back. You can always tell the Russian model by the finger grip under the trigger guard and the squared off grip frame rather than the rounded grip frame that the American market Model 3's have. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... an_867.jpg

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