Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

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Musashi
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#31

Post by Musashi » 06 Sep 2009, 00:29

An excellent read of a German point of view. It's nice to meet a man with some testicles as General K. von Briesen was. Was he awarded for the battle? He should have been at least.

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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#32

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Sep 2009, 00:40

Was he awarded for the battle? He should have been at least.
But for what exactly? For bravery - of course yes. For command - in my opinion no (especially that it was very short).


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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#33

Post by tigre » 07 Sep 2009, 23:26

Hello to all :D; more follows..............

15 Sep 1939.

On September 15 1939 the Polish attack went under way; the 26 DP met strong German resistance before it and could recognize a new German Division, the 19 ID, on the south river bank of the Bzura; in spite of that, it could take Glebock pressing forward slowly. Later the 26 DP could ford the Bzura as well as the 16 DP, but this latter division could not assail Lowicz.

The 4 DP jumped out without met any resistance reaching the road Lowicz – Glowno some 9 kilometers south west of Lowicz; from there it could cooperate with the 16 DP against the German troops deployed at Lowicz.

The communications between the HQ of the Army (Czerniewic), the Army Corps and its three divisions worked well all the morning.

At 10:00 hours, an important news reached General Bortnowski, the aerial reconnaissance reported that several German armored columns were heading towards Sochaczew around 15 kilometers due east of that town. It was in fact the 4 Pz which came in order to co-operate with the encirclement of the polish troops; to its right was moving as well the 1 Pz.

Source: La Campaña de Polonia. Robert Jars. Círculo Militar. Buenos Aires.
The German Campaign in Poland 1939 – Army Pamphlet Nº 20-255. CARL. Fort Leavenworth.
The battle of Bzura. Lost Victories. Erich v. Manstein.
http://niewiarowicz.republika.pl/szkic2.jpg
FOTOALBUM Lowicz Poland WW2Polski-Fiat Warschau. Artikelnummer: 130288769089. eBay auction (finished). Viernes, 20 de Febrero de 2009.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#34

Post by tigre » 11 Oct 2009, 05:13

Hello to all :D; more follows..............

15 Sep 1939.

General Bortnowski realized those tanks could crash the weak defense along the Bzura and could be a threat for the rear of the polish divisions engaged to Skiernewice so he got in contact first with the 26 DP and later with the 16 DP and the 4 DP instructing them to establish a strong antitank front.

The order found the 26 DP in a difficult position with its bulk against the enemy and one of its regiment fording the Bzura; the artillery was emplaced on the north bank of the river. The message worried the Divisional Commander, Plk Ajdukiewicz, who ordered the withdrawal towards the north bank.

Therefore the 26 DP’s withdrawal left the 16 DP without cover hence General Boltuc ordered the retreat of the whole Army Corps at once to the north bank. The 4 DP carried out the movement without heavy losses but the 16 DP was heavily bombed by the Luftwaffe. The attack foreseen by General Bortnowski was halted on its track by the threat of some tanks located at least 20 kilometers far away. The withdrawal order did not reach General Kurtzeba in time, he knew about it only late that very afternoon.

Meanwhile the Army Corps of General Knoll continued its withdrawal all along that day (15 Sep) and by nightfall had reached Zlakow with its 14 DP, Osmolin with its 17 DP and Admov-Gora with its 25 DP. The withdrawal continued also within the fighting groups of General Tokarzewski and General Grzmot-Skotnicki. In front of the cavalry brigades (Wielkopolska and Podolia) the Germans were fighting with tanks, hence Brochow was lost for the time being; it would be taken again during the night but paying a high price in casualties.

Source: La Campaña de Polonia. Robert Jars. Círculo Militar. Buenos Aires.
The German Campaign in Poland 1939 – Army Pamphlet Nº 20-255. CARL. Fort Leavenworth.
The battle of Bzura. Lost Victories. Erich v. Manstein.
http://niewiarowicz.republika.pl/szkic2.jpg
FOTOALBUM Lowicz Poland WW2Polski-Fiat Warschau. Artikelnummer: 130288769089. eBay auction (finished). Viernes, 20 de Febrero de 2009.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#35

Post by tigre » 21 Oct 2009, 05:41

Hello to all :D; more follows..............

16 Sep 1939.

On September 16 1939, General Knoll’s Army Corps advanced cautiously eastwards along the Bzura river when at 10:30 hours the Germans unleashed their attack:

4 Pz on the Bzura right bank in order to block the pass at Sochaczew and through the Kampinoska’s woods.

1 Pz astride the river between Lowicz and Sochaczew towards Kiernozic.

In the north the attack was not dangerous; but in the south the German tanks inflicted serious losses to the poles; the 14 DP and later the 17 DP were crushed and the tanks pushing ahead up to Czerniewiec where it ran over the Army’s CP. At 17:00 hours the tanks stopped around Kiernozic and the wood located 5 kilometers south of Rybno. The German infantry pressed on as well and the 4 DP was pushed against the Bzura, the 26 DP was rejected as well; only the 16 DP was untouched.

General Grzmot-Skotnicki withdrew towards Kutno and General Tokarzewski along the Vistula (15 DP to Brochow and 27 DP to Ilowo). Both cavalry brigades withdrew towards Brochow and started to entrench on the left of the Bzura river bank but by nightfall sneaked due north to Wysogrod crossing to the right river bank around Wiktorow.

General Bortnowski, who was at the CP of the 16 DP, ordered immediately that General Boltuc and the 26 DP were to break contact and retreat during the night towards Ilow and then reach Warsaw through the Kampinoska woods. This order could reach the lowest echelons which started to fulfill it.

Source: La Campaña de Polonia. Robert Jars. Círculo Militar. Buenos Aires.
The German Campaign in Poland 1939 – Army Pamphlet Nº 20-255. CARL. Fort Leavenworth.
The battle of Bzura. Lost Victories. Erich v. Manstein.
http://niewiarowicz.republika.pl/szkic2.jpg
FOTOALBUM Lowicz Poland WW2Polski-Fiat Warschau. Artikelnummer: 130288769089. eBay auction (finished). Viernes, 20 de Febrero de 2009.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#36

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 22 Oct 2009, 18:11

1 Pz on the Bzura right bank in order to block the pass at Sochaczew and through the Kampinoska’s woods.

4 Pz astride the river between Lowicz and Sochaczew towards Kiernozic.
Inversely - 4 Pz was on the right bank of the Bzura and 1 Pz was pushing towards Kiernozia.

Here is a map of the area on 16 - 17 IX 1939 from P. Bauer, B. Polak, "Armia Poznań 1939":

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/642/kiernozia2.jpg
At 17:00 hours the tanks stopped around Kiernozic and the wood located 5 kilometers south of Rybno.
Surely they stoppped on their own 8-), heh.
but in the south the German tanks inflicted serious losses to the poles; the 14 DP and later the 17 DP were crushed
What is your source? It exaggerates real events. 14 DP and 17 DP were not crushed, only III./57 I.R. was dispersed because it was surprised by tanks while preparing to conduct an assault. Also I./57 I.R. suffered heavy losses but in the end got off it lightly. Unfortunately also one battery from 14. pal and almost entire 14. dac were knocked-out.

But the reaction of general Wlad (commander of 14 DP) was immediate - he ordered his units to entrench and prepare AT hedgehog defence. Enemy infantry was repulsed and tanks left alone. Soon tanks which were trying to reach the road Lowicz - Sanniki were repulsed along the line Bledow - Karnkow - Rozyce by 58 I.R. supported by 2 AT guns, three batteries of 14. pal (8 x 100mm and 3 x 75mm) and one howitzer cal. 155mm (from 14. dac). As the result Germans lost 27 tanks, such a number was reported by the HQ of 14 DP (which was observing the whole combat). Another group of German tanks - from Pz.Rgt.2 - appeared near Szwarocin - also here tanks were repulsed (by 55 I.R. this time) - 6 tanks were lost, Pz.Rgt.2 failed and had to withdraw towards Jeziorko for the night. Only dispersed Pz.Rgt.1 succeded to reach Kiernozia in great chaos against heavy enemy resistance, but there its units were encircled by fresh forces of Polish 16th Inf.Div. and its withdrawal road was cut off by forces of 26 DP. As the result Pz.Rgt.1 suffered heavy casualties during the battle near Kiernozia and had to break through the Polish encirclement under cover of the night, not all tanks of the regiment managed to escape, many were destroyed, others hardly survived until being finally relieved by German infantry some two or three days later.

It should be noted that the attack of 1. Pz.Div. was also supported by Luftwaffe, for example 58 I.R. was bombed by few dozens of Stuka dive bombers before being attacked by armoured-motorized units near Bledow - Karnkow. Also units of I./70 I.R. from 17 DP were heavily bombed by Luftwaffe near Rybno for 2 hours - since 2:00 PM until 4:00 PM.

In case of 17 DP, only one battalion (3rd rifle battalion - additional, 10th infantry battalion of the division) was surprised by tanks in Lipnice while eating dinner and thus defeated, but managed to retreat despite heavy losses. But this was the end of German successes in combats against 17 DP on that day. Further advance of 1. Pz.Div. towards Rybno (where the divisional HQ was located) was repulsed by I./70 I.R., despite continuous attacks which were being repeated by Germans until the late evening. German assaults against I./70 I.R. near Rybno started immediately after the end of Luftwaffe bombings and lasted since 4:00 PM until late evening hours (one hour before midnight the battle was already over). At the same time 69 I.R. successfully repulsed attacks of units from 1. Pz.Div. and 19. Inf.Div. near Ćmiszew and III./68 I.R. supported by 2 AT guns and most of divisional artillery repulsed attacks of 4. Pz.Div. and "Leibstandarte" directed towards Ruszki and Adamowa Gora, with a loss of 23 destroyed tanks and 6 other AFVs for the Germans, out of which 17 tanks and 5 other AFVs were destroyed by 6th battery of cpt. Glowacki from 17. pal. The same battery also destroyed ca. 30 motorcycles. In total it fired 250 rouns in that combat. Poles lost only 2 guns from the 4th / 17. pal. One German tank was also eliminated by a Polish AT gun from III./68 I.R.

To summ up the German armoured-motorized assault on 16.09.1939 (called "natarcie pancerne pod Sochaczewem" or "bój pod Sochaczewem 16.09.1939" by Polish historians) didn't achieve any major tactical successes and was occupied with very heavy casualties. Objectives of this operations - cutting Polish forces trapped inside the pocket in half - were not achieved. The only important success was temporary disorganization of Polish communications and rears. This disorganization turned out to be permanent, the reason of which was the huge Luftwaffe offensive against Polish forces at the Bzura which started on the following day - 17 IX - and this offensive was really destructive.

It must be underlined that the German attack failed despite the fact that it was a total surprise for the Polish side.

The German Panzer assault caused the decision of gen. Kutrzeba to abandon the plans of counterattacks (we must remember that on 16.09.1939 Poles were also on the offensive) and to withdraw to the Kampinoska Forest.

Sources:

Tadeusz Jurga, "Bzura 1939"
P. Bauer, B. Polak, "Armia Poznań 1939"
Jerzy Godlewski, "Bitwa nad Bzurą"
Witold Engel, "Czołgi płonęły nad Bzurą" ("Tanks were burning at the Bzura")
Ludwik Głowacki, "17 Wielkopolska DP w kampanii 1939" - monograph of 17 DP
Wincenty Iwanowski, "Walki GO gen. Knolla-Kownackiego z niemieckim XVI Korpusem Panc. 16-17 IX 1939"
"70 pułk piechoty w Wojnie Obronnej 1939 roku" - monograph of 70 I.R.
Memoirs of col. Jakiel, commander of reconaissance company of 58 I.R.
Memoirs of Oberstleutnant Eberbach, H. Schaufler "So Lebten und Starben Sie: Das Buch vom Panzer-Regiment 35"
Odkrywca Forum, ebay.de (photos of German tank wrecks - tanks from 1 / 4 Pz destroyed on 16.09.1939)
http://web.archive.org/web/200803061317 ... byday.com/
and the tanks pushing ahead up to Czerniewiec where it ran over the Army’s CP.
I must check this - I don't remember if such event happened or not, but I don't think it did. At least my current sources don't say anything about such an event. Not even a single divisional HQ was overrun (tanks pushed towards the HQ of 14 DP, but were repulsed in front of it, similar situation took place near the HQ of 17 DP - tanks were repulsed before reaching it and the HQ was observing combats). Btw - the Army's CP but which Army's CP - "Poznan" or "Pomorze"?

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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#37

Post by tigre » 27 Oct 2009, 23:52

Hello to all :D; hey Domen do not get mad my friend :wink:. Whatever were the sources, if we compare one against the other we'll have a good story in the end :idea:............Thanks for that complement....

Meanwhile General Kurtzeba had ordered that on September 17 of 1939, the troops must attack in order to breach a gap in the direction of Sochaczew but it came to late and General Bortnowski did not change his own orders.

On September 17 of 1939 in the morning the Germans had launched a general attack against Kutno, Lowicz and Sochaczew. The 15 DP, which approached to Brochow during the night, was thrown into battle against the Germans lines without any reconnaissance; it suffered great number of casualties but several of its battalions could reach Warsaw. At the same time the cavalry brigades “Podolia” and “Wielkopolska” could get through the Kampinoska woods reaching the capital.

From noon onwards the Germans controlled the Bzura River between Sochaczew and Brochow. From that last locality up to Wysogrod the river bank was under German artillery fire.

During the night from 17 to 18 September of 1939 the polish soldiers were gathering in order to reach either Modlin or Warsaw; sometimes were Platoons others companies or even battalions.

PS: in the end, only a handful of polish troops could reach Warsaw....It was not a Cannae but Eppur si muove

Source: La Campaña de Polonia. Robert Jars. Círculo Militar. Buenos Aires.
The German Campaign in Poland 1939 – Army Pamphlet Nº 20-255. CARL. Fort Leavenworth.
The battle of Bzura. Lost Victories. Erich v. Manstein.
http://niewiarowicz.republika.pl/szkic2.jpg
FOTOALBUM Lowicz Poland WW2Polski-Fiat Warschau. Artikelnummer: 130288769089. eBay auction (finished). Viernes, 20 de Febrero de 2009.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#38

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 28 Oct 2009, 12:32

Musashi wrote:An excellent read of a German point of view. It's nice to meet a man with some testicles as General K. von Briesen was. Was he awarded for the battle? He should have been at least.
He was. He got the Ritterkreuz. Out of interest, he was 53 leading 30 ID on the Bzura - is that an unusually advanced age to be commanding a division in 1939? By the war's end we have Max Sachsenheimer leading 17 ID as a 35-year-old Generalmajor. 8O

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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#39

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Nov 2009, 16:14

hey Domen do not get mad my friend
I'm not. Not at you at least, maybe at some of your sources a bit. ;)
it suffered great number of casualties but several of its battalions could reach Warsaw.
In fact all of its battalions could reach Warsaw (see below), but on 16 - 17 IX it indeed suffered great casualties.
PS: in the end, only a handful of polish troops could reach Warsaw...
Not such a handful. Something between 35,000 and 40,000 Polish soldiers could reach Warsaw. This includes both cohesive units as well as all remnants of other, destroyed, units which managed to break through to Warsaw.

Units which made it to Warsaw and their condition when entering Warsaw or soon thereafter:

Wielkopolska BK:

15 puł - 18 officers, 389 uhlans, ca. 400 horses, 2 AT guns
17 puł - 17 officers, 46 NCOs, 406 uhlans, over 400 horses, 1 AT gun
7 psk - 14 officers, 530 NCOs and riflemen, over 550 horses, 5 AT guns + additionally some 200 - 250 wounded

So when entering Warsaw all 3 cavalry rgts. numbered some 1450 soldiers. According to the OdeB of a Polish cavalry regiment, it should number 874 men (so 3 rgts. should number 2622 men), which means some 45% casualties.

Polish cavalry (3-regimental) according to its OdeB should number:

3 x cav.rgt. - 2622
Dak (horse art. bat.) with 3 batteries - 791
Rfile battalion (but neither Wielkopolska nor Podolska cav. brig. didn't have rifle battalions) - 933
Other combat & support units (sappers, cyclists, communication, armoured, etc.) - ca. 600 - 650
Rear & supply units / stocks - ca. 1150 - 1200

Entire Wielkopolska BK - 110 officers & 2193 NCOs and men in combat units + probably some 1000 men in rear / supply units, 11 artillery guns in 7 dak, 11 AT guns, 2 tankettes from 71. dyon panc. (both TKS with 20mm gun)

Losses of 17 puł in the entire campaign - killed: 14 officers, 35 NCOs, 149 uhlans = 198
Losses of 7 psk in the entire campaign - 174 - 180 killed (134 surnames are known), including 15 - 16 officers

Losses of Wielkopolska BK in the campaign - dead: 477 surnames (55 officers) known, real losses probably ca. 550

Podolska BK:

9 puł - 15 officers, 400 NCOs and uhlans, 390 horses, 2 AT guns
14 puł - 24 officers, 342 uhlans, 348 horses, 1 AT gun
6 puł - 11 officers, 519 NCOs and uhlans

Entire Podolska BK - 10 AT guns, 4 artillery guns in 6 dak

Losses of 9 puł in the entire campain - killed: 5 officers, 50 NCOs and uhlans
Losses of 14 puł in the entire campaign - ca. 150 (10) killed, 200 (5) wounded, 100 (3) missing and captured, 106 surnames of fallen soldiers from this cavalry rgt. are known (including 10 officers, 30 NCOs and 66 uhlans).

25 DP:

60 pp - ca. 2/3 of initial strength when it reached Warsaw
29 psk - some 15 - 20% casualties by the time of reaching Warsaw
56 pp - seriously weakened (after breaking through to Warsaw, II. battalion was dissolved and other reinforced)
III/25 pal
31 kczrozp.
25 kkol.
kaw.dyw.
25 komp.sap.

Losses of 56 pp durng the whole campaign amounted to 717 killed, 200 missing and captured, 1200 wounded and sick
Losses of 60 pp during the entire campaign amounted to 315 killed, 550 wounded, 800 missing and captured
Losses of 29 psk during the entire campaign amounted to 147 - 148 killed / died of wounds (+ probably 300 wounded)

15 DP:

59 pp - losses of the regiment in period 1 - 28 IX amounted to 550 killed and 900 wounded
61 pp - huge casualties near Konary on 16 and 17 IX (regimental commander was KIA)
62 pp
15 pal
bat. ON "Nakło"
15 bat.sap.
most of other divisional units

Losses of 62 pp in the Defensive War of Poland in 1939:

1 - 6 IX - defence of Bydgoszcz - 75 (1) dead / 122 wounded
7 - 10 IX - during march across Gniewkowo, Bachorz, Grabkowo - 6 dead / 14 wounded
11 - 13 IX - combats in the area Czerniewice, Grabkowo - 20 dead / 30 wounded
14 - 15 IX - combats in the area Szczawin Kościelny, Gąbin - 30 dead / 60 wounded
16 IX - combats in the area Stare Budy, Biała Góra - 44 dead / 60 wounded
17 IX - battle of Brochów - 140 (6) dead / 210 wounded
18 - 20 IX - combats in Puszcza Kampinoska - 181 (5) dead / 280 wounded
21 - 27 IX - defence of Warszawa - 60 (9) dead / 210 wounded

Total - 656 (21) dead / 986 wounded

2. Remnants which broke through to Palmiry and Łomianki (where a bloody battle took place on 21 and 22.09.1939):

17 DP - ca. 4,500 - 5,000 soldiers (mainly from 68 pp and 69 pp), 5 artillery guns from 17 pal

Losses of 69 pp during the entire campaign amounted to 1,250 killed, wounded, missing.

14 DP - ca. 3,500 soldiers (mainly from 58 pp)

Remnants of 14 pp from 4 DP - ca. 1 battalion

Losses of 14 pp during the first 3 days of the campaign amounted to 116 killed (8 officers), 184 wounded (6 officers) and 75 missing / captured (4 officers). During the entire campaign 14 pp lost 30 officers dead and 22 wounded.

Near Palmiry - Łomianki, after a two days long bloody battle fought against 6 German divisions (29. Motorized, 2. and 3. Light, 1. Panzer, 18 and 24. Infantry) these remnants lost some 3,000 men. The rest of them managed to reach Warsaw. My grand uncle was serving in 69 pp of 17 DP and hardly survived the battle of Lomianki, his company was completely annihilated there, got encircled in the forest and was destroyed by superior firepower. He survived by hiding in an empty trunk of a fallen tree. In this way he managed to avoid captivity. Total Polish losses in combats in the Kampinoska Forest between 19 and 22 IX amounted to some 2,500 killed (the most bloody battles were Lomianki, Burakow, Mlociny, Wolka Weglowa). This includes gen. Mikołaj Bołtuć, commander of this improvised group.

Also numerous other, small single groups of soldiers managed to break through to either Warsaw or Modlin.

Soldiers from the group of dismounted cavalry under command of ppłk. Zygmunt Wazynski surprised by flanking machinegun fire on 22 IX while breaking through to Warsaw. The wounded Polish officer is probably Wazynski:

Image

Also German losses during combats in the Kampinoska Forest amounted to thousands. 1. Leichte-Division alone lost 600 soldiers killed / wounded / missing + additional few hundreds captured (but quickly recaptured) as well as several dozens of tanks during combats against Polish Wielkopolska and Podolska cavalry brigades, mainly in the area of Laski - Sierakow - Izabelin - Truskaw. Inf.Rgt.12 from 31. Inf.Div. lost several hundreds men when it was overran by Polish cavalry near Polesie. 29. Inf.Div. also suffered heavy losses in those combats, as well as 2. Lei.Div., 18 and 24. Inf.Div. 4. Pz.Div., LAH and attached units suffered heavy losses in defensive combats east from the Bzura too - losses of 4. Pz.Div., LAH and attached units most probably amounted to ca. 1,000 KIA / WIA or more during combats in Puszcza Kampinoska. 18. Inf.Div. certainly also lost several hundreds men there (during the whole campaign it lost 717 KIA and at least 1,294 WIA + an unknown number of MIA). Losses of 29. Inf.Div.(mot.) in September amounted to 316 killed and almost twice that WIA. Considerable part of these losses must have been suffered in Kampinos. Inf. Rgt.12 from 31. Inf.Div. claimed suffering 250 killed or missing until 21.09.1939, including 4 officers - but the report was considered as incomplete ("Uber die Verluste liegen keine verlasslichen Nachrichten vor"). All of these four officers lost their lives in Puszcza Kampinoska, so probably major part of NCOs and privates too. Casualties of 19. Inf.Div. also amounted to some 2,000 WIA or KIA during the campaign in Poland (but with bigger percentage of WIA and smaller percentage of KIA than in 18th Inf.Div.). 2. Lei.Div. lost 326 KIA and 495 WIA by the end of September. Finally losses of 24. Inf.Div. in Poland amounted to some 1500 - 1600 men KIA or WIA, including at least 1017 WIA.
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#40

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Nov 2009, 18:20

Hi Guys,

Has anyone got a map of the overall strategic situation?

From memory I would suggest that, even had they achieved local success at Bzura, the Poles were in any case already deeply outflanked by German forces advancing from East Prussia, which are not shown on any of the maps so far produced.

The Bzura battle, however it went, was never going to turn the tide of war in Polish favour. It might have allowed more Polish forces to escape into the Warsaw garrison, but this was itself soon surrounded.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#41

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Nov 2009, 18:34

Hi Sid,
the Poles were in any case already deeply outflanked by German forces advancing from East Prussia
Not yet on 08.09.1939 - 09.09.1939.

On 9th of September, when the battle of Bzura started, the "2nd stage of the battle of the border" was still in progress in the East Prussian direction. Germans were fighting for the line of the river Bug along the line Zegrzynek - Wyszkow - Brok - Malkinia. Defensive lines along the Bug were abandoned by Polish forces not before 10.09.1939, due to misunderstandings of commanders and contradictory orders from High Command and from Army Command. Of course these misunderstandings would have never happened if Polish communication had worked correctly This mistake was serious because the defense could not be restored, as it quickly turned out. At the same time heavy combats were in progress for Nowogrod. But maybe you are talking about Guderian - Guderian couldn't capture Łomza so he attacked Wizna on 7 IX. On 9 IX he already passed Wizna (only some forces were left behind in order to clear the area, last Polish bunkers were resisting there until the next day), but he yet didn't deal with Polish 18th Infantry Division near Andrzejewo and Zambrow. This took place during the next days and on 14.09.1939 Guderian reached the fortress of Brest-Litovsk. Anyway, he never managed to cut-off Polish forces in Western Poland as was planned. On 18.09.1939 near Chelm Lubelski he was repulsed by Polish 33th and 41st Infantry Divisions, while forces advancing from the south (XXII Panzer-Korps with 2nd Pz. and 4th Lei. divisions) also didn't manage complete this task and meet with Guderian.
Has anyone got a map of the overall strategic situation?
I don't have but the frontline in the north on 8 - 9 IX was more or less along the line of rivers Bug - Narew - Biebrza:
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#42

Post by tigre » 04 Nov 2009, 04:00

Hello Domen :D; OK no problem at all. The last part................and I think my sources are good enough may be a little old........................

At least the following polish forces could escape from the trap:

15 DP and 25 DP around one third of its strength.

Cavalry Brigades “Wielkopolska” and “Podolia” around one half of its strength.

17 DP and 27 DP around some hundred of its men.

4 DP, 16 DP and 26 DP only small and isolates fractions.

Generals Knoll, Tokarzewski and Kutrzeba (the latter with his Staff) could reach Warsaw. General Grzmot-Skotnicki found a glorious dead while charging ahead of the last squadrons of Cavalry Brigade “Pomorska”. General Bortnowski organized a last defensive position within the wood of Bialogor and later was taken prisoner together with some officers of his own Staff.

On September 19 of 1939 General Boltuc leading a group of officers and men tried to break to Warsaw but was stopped before the Lomianka and the whole group was destroyed; General Boltuc found an heroic death there.

The Bzura Battle had ended.

Source: La Campaña de Polonia. Robert Jars. Círculo Militar. Buenos Aires.
The German Campaign in Poland 1939 – Army Pamphlet Nº 20-255. CARL. Fort Leavenworth.
The battle of Bzura. Lost Victories. Erich v. Manstein.
http://niewiarowicz.republika.pl/szkic2.jpg
FOTOALBUM Lowicz Poland WW2Polski-Fiat Warschau. Artikelnummer: 130288769089. eBay auction (finished). Viernes, 20 de Febrero de 2009.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
image002.jpg
A patrol from the LAH marching into Sochaczew; ahead one Sd Kfz 232 (8x8).
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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#43

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 20 Nov 2009, 22:59

Hi Tigre!,
General Grzmot-Skotnicki found a glorious dead while charging ahead of the last squadrons of Cavalry Brigade “Pomorska”.

General Bortnowski organized a last defensive position within the wood of Bialogor and later was taken prisoner together with some officers of his own Staff.

On September 19 of 1939 General Boltuc leading a group of officers and men tried to break to Warsaw but was stopped before the Lomianka and the whole group was destroyed; General Boltuc found an heroic death there.

The Bzura Battle had ended.
Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki was WIA and died shortly thereafter on 19.09.1939.

Gen. Boltuc was KIA near Lomianki on 22.09.1939, 22 September marked the end of the battle of Lomianki.

Gen. Bortnowski was captured near Bialogor on 21.09.1939 - he remained on the western side of the Bzura river.

Also Gen. Wlad - commander of 14 DP - was KIA by German artillery on 18.09.1939 near Iłów at the Bzura.

Combats in the Bzura pocket and in the area between Bzura and Warsaw finally ended around 22 - 24 September.

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tigre
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#44

Post by tigre » 21 Nov 2009, 01:38

Thanks for those data Domen :wink:. All the best. Raúl M 8-).

Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Polish offensive at the Bzura 1939 - Polish lost victory?

#45

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Nov 2009, 23:26

Hey, tigre, what is the sources of these Polish sketches?

It seems that they were made soon after September 1939 because they are described as "według danych ówczesnych".

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