Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

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AlifRafikKhan
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Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#1

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2009, 02:50

1st SS Panzer Division advanced in parallel battle groups, its most aggressive led by SS Lieutenant Colonel Jochen Peiper. Although usually identified as Peiper, this is in fact not him. A signpost points to Malmedy, where 84 US soldiers were murdered, for which Peiper was condemned to death, a sentence later commuted...
So, who is this guy, mis-identification as Jochen Peiper, and already noted in several books and sites?

Thanks in advance! :)

Source : Book "World War II In Photographs" by Carlton Books
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PATRICK CHARRON
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#2

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 27 Jul 2009, 11:45

Hi,

In Leibstandarte 1943-1945 by Charles Trang Heimdal 2008 identified as Oscha Persin and Uscha Ochsner (first identified by Jean Paul Pallud in Battle of the Bulge 1984 according C.Trang)

Regards
Patrick


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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#3

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2009, 14:08

Thanks Patrick! :D

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Harro
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#4

Post by Harro » 27 Jul 2009, 16:42

And I am still very curious where Pallud got those names and if he identified them correctly (given some incorrect identifications in his book).
Why not write and ask him
Phil Nix

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#5

Post by gto » 28 Jul 2009, 01:31

Obersturmführer Fritz Butschek (2./AR 1 LAH)

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Harro
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#6

Post by Harro » 28 Jul 2009, 13:26

Fritz Butschek? You're probabely referring to another photo from that series - the one Pallud misidentified as "Walter Leidreiter" (page 156). Some veterans say it's Coblenz, some say it's Butschek

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

#7

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 26 Oct 2009, 16:26

I believe this photo shows the same person as above. Maybe with a clearer picture now we can truly identify him?

Source : Book "Ardennes 1944" by James R. Arnold
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#8

Post by Harro » 26 Oct 2009, 19:10

Still curious where Pallud found the names Ochsner and Persin.

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

#9

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 22 Sep 2010, 01:26

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Oscha Persin and Uscha Ochsner at the Battle of the Bulge2.jpg
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

#10

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 10 Feb 2012, 13:13

This image taken at the Kaiserbaracke Crossroads (Rollbahn E) on December 18 1944 is from a captured German PK film. Most likely a stage publicity shot. The Grenadiers in these famous stills are often captioned being “SS-Unterscharführer Ochsner” and “SS-Oberscharführer Persin” of the 1.SS-Panzer-Division's reconnaissance unit on the southern route of the German counter-attack in the Ardennes. However, SS-Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilung.1 veterans having no memories of either of them. Nor are they listed in the Volksbund database or in the address lists of the Truppenkameradschaft.
Source: "FATAL CROSSROADS, The Untold Story of the Malmédy Massacre" By Danny S. Parker (Author)

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

#11

Post by Harro » 10 Feb 2012, 13:25

Guess who advised Danny on that matter ;)
Harro wrote:I never came across a Persin or Ochsner in any document, not in the Anschriftliste of the Truppenkameradschaft AA LAH, not in the Volksbund database and none of the veterans I asked knew them. I know Pallud introduced these names in the early 1980's but I still wonder about his source. Several people in the photos in his book, including photos from the Kaiserbaracke crossroads, have been misidentified so how reliable are the names Persin and Ochsner?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=137016
Harro wrote:Veterans of SS AA 1 have no clue about Persin or Ochsner, though some say they "might have been" with the Versorgungskompanie. They are not listed on the address list of the SS AA 1 Truppenkameradschaft and not in the Volksbund database. I have no clue who ever introduced these names in a publication for the first time. The first Schwimmer in the Kaiserbaracke pics is the vehicle of an Obersturmführer and his driver. From comparing the Ostuf. with one from 1948 is becomes most probable that it's Heinz Goltz, in December 1944 the commander of the Stabskompanie. However, this does not mean the second Schwimmer - the one with "Persin" and "Ochsner" belongs to the Stabskompanie or even the SS AA 1. Some sources suggest that it's actually a Schwimmer from the Batterie Stab of Obersturmführer Fritz Butschek (2./AR 1 LAH), who's Batterie was attached to Kampfgruppe Knittel. But who knows.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=61988

Eight years later we can add that the officer in the first Schwimmwagen is indeed SS-Obersturmführer Goltz, commander of the 4. (schw.) Kompanie, SS-Pz.AA1 LSSAH. Manfred Coblenz, then commander of the 2. Kompanie, identified him as such. It is my estimated guess that the famous "Peiper" Schwimmer shows members of the 3. (V.W.-) Kompanie: however, only weeks before the offensive they recieved a shipload of frech replacements from the Ersatz-Btln "Totenkopf" and it's likely that our "Peiper" perished in the senseless attacks against Stavelot. The veterans of the SS-Pz.AA1 never got familiar with their names. As for the names "Persin" and "Ochsner": I guess it's hard to confirm any name for these men as long as we don't know who Pallud's source was.

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#12

Post by Jstrasdin » 06 Dec 2023, 15:14

My relative gave evidence at investigation of Malmedy Massacre and named Persin as a underofficer in charge of a penal unit who he believed conducted the killings

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#13

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 06 Dec 2023, 18:46

Hello Gentleman,
Have a look on this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=61988&start=15&sid=fd83 ... 1a840c3de7
The man into the schwimmwagen is not Jochen Peiper, but the SS-Unterscharführer Ochsner with his driver.
SS-Oscha. Persin is in the rear of the vehicle.
Peiper was never at Kaisersbarracke.
Have also a look at this thread (in french )
https://www.39-45.org/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... lit=Peiper

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#14

Post by Harro » 06 Dec 2023, 20:51

Jstrasdin wrote:
06 Dec 2023, 15:14
My relative gave evidence at investigation of Malmedy Massacre and named Persin as a underofficer in charge of a penal unit who he believed conducted the killings
During which trial? Malmédy? Because the troops at Kaiserbaracke were never anywhere near Baugnez.

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

#15

Post by Harro » 06 Dec 2023, 20:59

Prosper Vandenbroucke wrote:
06 Dec 2023, 18:46
Hello Gentleman,
Have a look on this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=61988&start=15&sid=fd83 ... 1a840c3de7
The man into the schwimmwagen is not Jochen Peiper, but the SS-Unterscharführer Ochsner with his driver.
SS-Oscha. Persin is in the rear of the vehicle.
Peiper was never at Kaisersbarracke.
Have also a look at this thread (in french )
https://www.39-45.org/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... lit=Peiper
See the earlier replies. It is by now perfectly clear that there are no sources mentioning a Persin or Ochsner with the SS-PzAA1. I've also learned that Pallud's source was a German who used to attent veterans meetings in the 1960s. But we also know that such meetings are notoriously unreliable when the info is not backed by other sources. Pallud mixed up Leidreiter and Goltz and other veterans misidentified other men in the Poteau photos.

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