panzer III ausf N at Kursk

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spitfire303
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panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#1

Post by spitfire303 » 27 Aug 2009, 23:02

Hi,

I'm looking for informations and pictures about the Panzer III N during the Kursk operation. I know there were some attributed to the panzer regiment 35 (4th panzer division). I know that at least one photo of n°125 exist but just can't find it anywhere. Any information or picture will be very helpful.

thank you

Pawel

SIS 5
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#2

Post by SIS 5 » 28 Aug 2009, 21:37

Hi Pawel,

after searching a while I have found some information and pics. In the Polish booklet " 4 Dywizja Pancerna 1943" by Andrzej Kinski, Tomasz Nowakowski, Mariusz Skotnicki and Robert Sawicki is the information, that the 4th panzer division had 9 PzKpfw III Ausf. N on 1st August 1943. I will post the pic of such a tank out of this booklet. The text to the pic: "A PzKpfw III Sd Kfz 141/2 Ausf. N medium tank of the 1st batallion 35th Panzer regiment August 1943".

Then I´ve found two pics of Panzer III type N, one captured and one destroyed, in the Russian booklet "Kurskaja duga 5 ijulja - 23 avgusta 1943 g." by M. Kolomijets and M. Swirin. The text to the two pics: "The destroyed PzKpfw III Ausf. N support tank armed with 75mm KwK L/24" and "Scouts that have captured and brought this Pz Kpfw III Ausf. N to the Soviet positions. July 1943". Interesting is the sign on the turret of the destroyed tank. Sorry I don´t know it, but I think it is a sign of a tank regiment or division.
I hope I could help a little bit.

Regards

Bert
Attachments
Panzer-III-N-Kursk-3.jpg
Panzer-III-N-Kursk-3.jpg (81.41 KiB) Viewed 8436 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-1.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-1.jpg (96.25 KiB) Viewed 8436 times
Panzer-III-N-Kursk-2.jpg
Panzer-III-N-Kursk-2.jpg (174.97 KiB) Viewed 8436 times


spitfire303
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#3

Post by spitfire303 » 28 Aug 2009, 23:00

thank you Bert,

your informations and pictures are very helpful. The second vehicle is from the pz reg 3 / 2nd panzer division. The last picture is the most interesting one . I wonder form which unit is the pz III.

thanks

a lot

Pawel

SIS 5
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#4

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Aug 2009, 17:00

Hi Pawel,

after looking through my books and booklets I´ve found further pics of the Panzer III type N I will post here.
pic 1: source: squadron/signal publications Armor Number 24: PzKpfw III in action. I´m not sure, the source doesn´t give an information, but the coulor of the camoflage and the Pz IV in the background could fit.
pic 2: source: Armes Militaria Magazine Hors-Serie No 38: Koursk: L´offe´nsive allemande: a pic of the captured Pz III
pic 3: source: "Unternehmen Zitadelle" by Janusz Piekalkiewicz: as far as I can see it´s a tank of the 2nd panzer division

Greetings

Bert
Attachments
Pz-III-N-Kursk-6.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-6.jpg (135.42 KiB) Viewed 8335 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-5.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-5.jpg (125.89 KiB) Viewed 8335 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-4.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-4.jpg (75.31 KiB) Viewed 8335 times

SIS 5
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#5

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Aug 2009, 18:34

Here the next three pics:
pic 1: Japanese source: Battle of Kursk 2
pic 2 and 3: Waffen-Arsenal Band 122: Kampfpanzer III by Horst Scheibert: it´s a tank of panzer regiment 11 of the 6th panzer division ( Op is an abbreviation of the name of the coronel von Oppeln-Bronikowski, the commander of this regiment)

Greetings

Bert
Attachments
Pz-III-N-Kursk-9.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-9.jpg (93.7 KiB) Viewed 8319 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-8.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-8.jpg (117.98 KiB) Viewed 8319 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-7.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-7.jpg (164.78 KiB) Viewed 8319 times

SIS 5
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#6

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Aug 2009, 18:39

Hi Pawel,

here the last two pics of a Panzer III type N
source: Panzerkampfwagen III im Kampfeinsatz by Markus Zöllner (Tankograd Wehrmacht Special No 4005)
Information to the tank: This photograph, taken in 1943 near Kursk in Russia, shows a Panzerkampfwagen III Ausführung N.

Greetings

Bert
Attachments
Pz-III-N-Kursk-11.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-11.jpg (126.59 KiB) Viewed 8318 times
Pz-III-N-Kursk-10.jpg
Pz-III-N-Kursk-10.jpg (112.8 KiB) Viewed 8318 times

spitfire303
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#7

Post by spitfire303 » 29 Aug 2009, 21:37

Wow Bert I haven't counted on such a help! Pictures of Pz IIIN are really difficult to find. Thank you very much man I owe you one !

Pawel

Does anyone know if the Pz IIIN was used in western europe in 44-45?

thanks
Pawel

SIS 5
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#8

Post by SIS 5 » 30 Aug 2009, 08:36

Hi Pawel,

nice to can help You.
This morning I´ve found the best source according to the numbers of Pz III type N: "Die deutsche Panzertruppe" by Thomas L. Jentz. Here is a list of the tanks (Panzer III type N) the panzer units had 1st July 1943:
2. PD: 20 Pz III (75)
3. PD: 17 Pz III (75)
4. PD: 15 Pz III (75)
5. PD: 17 Pz III (75)
6. PD: 18 Pz III (75)
7. PD: 12 Pz III (75)
8. PD: 4 Pz III (75)
12. PD: 6 Pz III (75)
17. PD: 9 Pz III (75)
18. PD: 20 Pz III (75)
19. PD: 11 Pz III (75)
20. PD: 5 Pz III (75)
23. PD: 3 Pz III (75)
18. PGD: 5 Pz III (75)
Div. Großdeutschland: 2 Pz III (75)
Div. Wiking: 8 Pz III (75)
Pz.Abt. 301: 3 Pz III (75)
1./Pz.Abt. 502: 1 Pz III (75)

Sorry, I couldn´t find more pics in my books.

Greetings

Bert

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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#9

Post by SIS 5 » 30 Aug 2009, 22:36

Hi Pawel,

to Your last question: Pz III Type N in Western Europe 1944: in the book "Die deutsche Panzertruppe" by Thomas L. Jentz the only panzer division with this tank type was the 21st with 4 Pz III (75).

Greetings

Bert

spitfire303
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#10

Post by spitfire303 » 30 Aug 2009, 22:57

thank you Bert. All of those informations are very helpful.

I've received a pic of pz IIIN in Denmark in 1945, quite a large number of IIIN

Image

Martin Block
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#11

Post by Martin Block » 31 Aug 2009, 13:04

Hello Bert,

Unfortunately the 4 Pz III(75) with the 21. Pz.Div. on 1.6.1944 are one of the very few errors in Jentz's book. The original status reports of the 21. Pz.Div. from the spring and summer 1944 actually do show 4 Pz. III armed with the 50mm gun (3 with Pz.Rgt.Stb. 22, 1 with Abt.Stb. I./Pz.Rgt. 22) and NOT the 75mm gun.

There is also a small error in your above listing. The 18. PGD needs to be replaced by the 16. PGD. The 18. PGD didn't have any tanks at all at that time in 1943.

@Pawel
The photo from Denmark does show Pz. III Ausf. N of the 233. (Res.)Pz.Div. which still had 18 of these tanks available by the end of the war.
More Pz. III Ausf. III in the West 1944/45 could for instance be found in Pz.Brig. Norwegen, 11. Pz.Div., Pz.Kp. 224

Martin Block

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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#12

Post by Otis » 31 Aug 2009, 22:42

The photo from Denmark does show Pz. III Ausf. N of the 233. (Res.)Pz.Div. which still had 18 of these tanks available by the end of the war.
And it seems some three of these were used by the mine clearing POW unit in my Tiger Mine Rolling Implement thread and associated link.

Interesting

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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#13

Post by SIS 5 » 01 Sep 2009, 14:57

Hi Martin, hi Pawel,

sorry for my mistake with the 16. PGD. I´ve written the wrong number.

In the booklet "Panzerwaffe at war (2) Moscow to Berlin" by Robert Michulec & Thomas Anderson I´ve found two pics of Panzer III Type N, another one in the Kursk area, the second one in France, I think 1943.
The text to the pics:

Pic 1: Guarding asupply lorries a PzPpfw. III Ausf. N passes by a destroyed T-34 Model 1943. With its side skirts and fenders still intact, the tank appears to be brand-new. The ubiquitous three-tone camouflage was applied to this tank, too.
Pic 2: This PzKpfe. III Ausf. N (reworked from Ausf. L), which is shown passing through a French city, is camouflaged in desert sand with brown blotches. The tanks belonging to this unit were soon transferred to North Africa. The Ausf. N was the final variant of the Panzer III.

Greetings

Bert
Attachments
Pz-III-N-Kursk-13.jpg
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Pz-III-N-France.jpg
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spitfire303
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#14

Post by spitfire303 » 02 Sep 2009, 00:32

wow that's great guys I really appreciate all that help. A lot of good stuff.

cheers

Pawel

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Alain Verwicht
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Re: panzer III ausf N at Kursk

#15

Post by Alain Verwicht » 02 Sep 2009, 06:36

Hello
For the second III N, it's not the 10. Panzer for the North Africa, but the Panzer-Regiment 25, 7. Panzer-Division, in November 1942, during the occupation of the South of France. After, the Division join the East Front.
Regards.
Alain Verwicht

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