Question regarding the FW-190D

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
User avatar
Imad
Member
Posts: 1412
Joined: 21 Nov 2004, 04:15
Location: Toronto

Question regarding the FW-190D

#1

Post by Imad » 12 Nov 2009, 03:34

Hello

What were the basic differences between the 190D-9 and the 190D-11? It would be helpful if someone could post a couple of pics for comparison. Thanks in advance.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#2

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Nov 2009, 04:08

Here's what Graham&Swanborough says about them -
In the event, however, the initial production model of what was to be known as the Langnasen-Dora was to be essentially a marriage of the FW190A-8 airframe with the Jumo 213A-1 engine installation, this being designated FW 190-D09. Deliveries to the Luftwaffe commenced in August 1944, The FW 190D-9 had an armament of two 13-mm MG131 machine guns and two 20-mm MG151 cannon, various Rustsatze being applied in service. The D-10 was to have featured a 30-mm MK 108 Motorkannon, but none was. in fact, delivered. Another armament change distinguished the D-11 which had two MK 108s in the outer wing bays, but only prototypes were completed.
What Wiki says -
17 Fw 190 D-11s were known to have been manufactured. This version was fitted with the uprated Jumo 213E series engine which was also used in the Ta-152 H series. Changes over the D-9 were the enlarged supercharger air-intake on the starboard side cowling and the use of a wooden, broad-bladed VS 9 or 10 propeller unit utilizing three 9-27012 C-1 blades with a diameter of 3.6 m (11.8 ft). The 13 mm (.51 in) fuselage guns were removed, and the cowling redesigned and by omitting the gun troughs was changed to a flat profile. Two 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons were installed in the outer wings to complement the 20 mm MG 151s in the inboard positions. Of the 17 Dora-11s delivered, three can be accounted for. One, the best-known, was Rote 4 (red 4) of JV 44's Platzschutz unit. Another, white chevron, was found at München-Riem, and may have served with JV 44 after serving at the Verbandsführerschule General der Jagdflieger (Training School for Unit Leaders) at Bad Wörishofen; it is not known if it was actually used operationally. A third, "white <61," was also found after the war at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger.


User avatar
Imad
Member
Posts: 1412
Joined: 21 Nov 2004, 04:15
Location: Toronto

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#3

Post by Imad » 12 Nov 2009, 13:09

Hmmm. Were all 17 Fw-190D 11s assigned to JV 44?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#4

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Nov 2009, 16:51

A third, "white <61," was also found after the war at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger.
Obviously not! :wink:

User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 13:15
Location: UK

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#5

Post by Tim Smith » 12 Nov 2009, 18:42

So the D-9 was a hasty lash-up of an old fuselage with a new engine, like the Spitfire XIV, while the D-11 was the intended definitive version, like the Spitfire XVIII, but was built in smaller numbers.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#6

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Nov 2009, 18:45

while the D-11 was the intended definitive version
...but don't forget the D-12 - which did in the end replace the D-9 in series production :wink:

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Nov 2009, 19:18

Hmmm, I have two sources that disagree with what Wiki says.
First, from Monogram Close-Up 10 FW 190 D:
Attention then was focused on the next production model, the Fw 190 D-11. This version was more closely related to the D-9 but powered by the Jumo 213 F driving a VS 10 prop and equipped with low pressure MW 50 powerboost. Seven prototypes had been assigned to the D-11 series (the V55 through V61) and it was anticipated that all would appear between September and October 1944. It was further anticipated that production of the variant would be undertanken by Focke-Wulf from January 1945. Armament was to comprise two MG 151/20 cannon in the wing roots and two MK 108s in the outer wing positions. Cowl weapons were omitted, their place being covered by a new smoothly faired metal cover. Early plans to produce the D-11 were delayed when it became clear that insufficient preparation time was available and in the end no production was undertaken.
It also gives the following details of the D-11 prototypes:
V.Nr.-----W.Nr.-----Code-----Engine-----Remarks
V55-----170923-----GV+CV-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Fw test flights proved gear ratio of third stage of the compressor was tool low. Built from an A-8 airframe. Armament: two MG 131 and two MG 151.
V56-----170924-----GV+CW-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Fw first flown on August 31, 1944. Built from an A-8 airframe.
V57-----170926-----GV+CY-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Built from an A-8 airframe. Intended for Rechlin.
V58-----170933-----GV+DF-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Built from an A-8 airframe. To Tarnewitz, then Fw.
V59-----350156-----VI+QK?-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Built from an A-8 airframe. Crashed October 9, 1944.
V60-----350157-----VI+QL?-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Built from an A-8 airframe. No armament installed.
V61-----350158-----VI+QM-----213 F-----MW 50 installed. Built from an A-8 airframe. For Junkers engine tests.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#8

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Nov 2009, 19:22

Then from Butcher Bird - The Focke-Wulf Fw 190:
The D-11 series which followed had a similar fate, only a small batch of prototypes being constructed. These were powered by the Jumo 213F with MW 50 booster. Engine-mounted guns were omitted, there being only two MG 151s in the wing-roots and two MK 108s in the outer wings. It was intended to instal the Jumo 213EB engine as powerplant at a later date but this was not realised.
Only seven prototypes of the D-11 series were built.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#9

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Nov 2009, 21:19

I-M it's not impossible that ALL the sources are right; the way the Germans did things, there would have been X-number of "proper" prototypes...THEN x-number of 0-series pre-production aircraft :wink:

In this case - seven plus ten? Given that the two confirmed JV44 aircraft, plus one other known "white <61" at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger...and NONE of the three fitting in the Prototype histories you quote above...this would make me wonder that it was possibly an extra ten 0-series aircraft that went to the training schools then on to operational use?

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#10

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Nov 2009, 22:04

The problem with that being that it disagrees with the sources shown:
Only seven prototypes of the D-11 series were built
Only... no mention of a 0-series production.
...and in the end no production was undertaken
Not even of a pre-production series, it seems.
...but only prototypes were completed
Again, only prototypes... and this is your own source.

I find it difficult to believe that sources that go as far as detailing all the seven prototypes will not mention the pre-production aircraft, if they existed at all. Do you have any confirmation for the two JV44 aircraft and the one at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger, apart from Wikipedia and its reference?

P.S.: Look that there is a disagreement not only in the number of planes, but also in the engine employed. Could it be that Wiki is mixing different models of the Fw-190D?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#11

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Nov 2009, 23:24

Do you have any confirmation for the two JV44 aircraft and the one at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger, apart from Wikipedia and its reference?
Jerry Crandall's "Dora's of the Galland Circus" 1999, ISBN 99-94772 is the best for details on the Doras that served with JV 44. He describes "Red 4" in detail, as does Bob Forsyth's "JV 44 The Galland Circus2 though it's been a lot of years since I looked through it or Crandall's. Both have THIS picture in it...Rote 4. Note the cowling on top of the engine - no nose mounted cannon :wink:

Image

You can see the D-11's inboard gun and just the tail and no more of the bulge over the outer wing bay for the cannon there. I can't remember much, but Forsyth noted that there were anywhere from 7 to 13 D-11s built and sources varied on the exact number with 7 being "most common". I can't remember now what Crandall said, if anything.

All the Platzschutzstaffel seem to have had "Red X" as their identifier...but only details of five of the unit's Fw's are even partially known nowadays. Here are four of the unit's flyer's including Red 4's pilot, Karl-Heinz Hoffmann, perched on on of the unit's D-9s (you can see the cowling cannon under their collective bottoms :lol: )

Image

And here it is, on the job!

Image

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#12

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Nov 2009, 09:28

You forget an important point... that the D-11s in JV-44 could actually have been some of the prototypes! :D
After all, only V59 seems to have been lost, crashed in October 1944. When the D-11 project was cancelled, there was no further use for the prototypes, and it is perfectly possible that JV 44 could have obtained a pair of them (though I have seen different numbers for the D-11s in JV 44) with another one finding its way to Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger. See for example http://home.att.net/~jv44/jv44wurger.htm that, though it only mentions a D-11, states that it was "Possibly former V58". So the existence of a pair of D-11s in JV 44 as a "proof" of there being a 0-series of ten D-11 aircraft is quite weak, at least until....
Ironmachine wrote:Do you have any confirmation for the two JV44 aircraft and the one at the Verbandsfuehrerschule General der Jagdflieger, apart from Wikipedia and its reference?
this question is answered. Because I was not asking for a confirmation of their existence, that I already knew (though, as I have said previously, there are discrepancies about their number), but for a confirmation of their identity, i.e., whether they were some of the prototypes or planes of a 0-series. Do you have their W.Nr.?
phylo_roadking wrote:...Forsyth noted that there were anywhere from 7 to 13 D-11s built and sources varied on the exact number with 7 being "most common".
I have seen the different numbers in a number of books, but I have never seen before the 17 D-11s stated in Wiki. Anyway, this would mean, by your argument, anything from a 0-series of one to six aircraft, as the seven prototypes are clearly identified. Without any more detailed sources, I think that any speculation about the existence of such aircraft is not very useful, so more so as the aircraft of JV 44 and the schule could very well have been part of the prototypes.

Regards.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#13

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Nov 2009, 09:58

What follows comes from Osprey's JV 44:
Fw 190D-11 Wk-Nr. 170933? "Red 4" of JV 44
Platzschutzschwarm, Munich-Riem, April-May 1945
This Fw 190D-11 is believed to have been acquired by JV 44 from the Verbandsführerschule General der Jagdflieger (General of Fighters' Unit Leaders' School), based at Bad Wörishofen, not far from Munich. This unit was disbanded on 27 April 1945, and it seems that the aircraft made it to Riem just days before the elements of JV 44 transferred to Salzburg. Ainring and Innsbruck...
So it seems that at least one of the (more than one?) D-11s in JV 44 was one of the prototypes...

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#14

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Nov 2009, 18:57

Now, to really complicate the matter:
The Focke-Wulf factory at Bremen, in 1944 designated seven A-8 airframes to be combined with Junkers Jumo 213 F engines to test the D-11 series. They were assigned the numbers V55 to V61, the "V" representing a Versuchsmuster aircraft which means it is not a prototype but rather a machine used to test armament or features for a future aircraft. By April 1945, thirteen D-11 and four D-11 EZ 42 had been produced, according to the General Quartermeister report.
(From Doras of the Galland Circus, by Jerry Crandall)

If this is correct, it would account for the 17 D-11s of Wiki, but then the 7 Versuchsmuster seem to be considered apart, so the total is more like 24... :?

The book also includes this picture, which is identified as Focke-Wulf Fw 190 D-11, W.Nr. 220009. If true, this would mean that there was at least a D-11 that was not part of the previous seven prototypes. Can anyone confirm that W.Nr. 220009 was indeed a D-11?
Attachments
D-11.JPG
D-11.JPG (13.81 KiB) Viewed 5590 times

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Question regarding the FW-190D

#15

Post by phylo_roadking » 13 Nov 2009, 20:44

Well, I DID say that none of this was going to be simple! :lol:
By April 1945, thirteen D-11 and four D-11 EZ 42 had been produced, according to the General Quartermeister report.
Question is....do we still have that???
Can anyone confirm that W.Nr. 220009 was indeed a D-11?
Not exactly literary "confirmation" - but it's certainly KNOWN as one...

http://www21.tok2.com/home/airluft/jbookpage1.htm
Following illustration contents
1., 2.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.211934 black <· + - JG6
3.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.211092 black <+ - JG6
4.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx black <- + - stab./JG6 Gerhard Barkhorn
5., 6.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx yellow11 JG2
7., 8.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.500570 black12 JG6
9.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.500342 white9 JG26
10.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx <- + - Stab./SG2
11.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.500666 yellow15 JG301
12.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.500647 brown4 JG26
13.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.400619 white1 JG26
14.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx black <- + - Stab./JG4 Gerhard Michalski
15.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.213097 white11 JG51
16.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.211323
17.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx blue1JG3
18.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.xxxxxx blue2 JG3
19.Fw190D-9 W.Nr.401392 black5-+ - JG26
20.Fw190D-11 W.Nr.220009 white <<
21.Fw190D-13 W.Nr.836017 yellow10-+ - JG26 Franz Goetz
http://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/view ... 15&start=0

Source: "Focke-Wulf Fw190D Camouflage & Markings"
The serial numbers of the FW-190D-11 went from W.Nr 220001 to 220017

"Focke-Wulf built a small batch of Fw-190D-11 in Feb-Mar'45... at least 17 D-11s were delivered to operational units..." These were to include:

Fw190D-11, W.Nr.220009 coded "White <<" of VFS des G.d.J
Fw190D-11, W.Nr.220011 coded "White <57" of VFS G.d.J
Fw190D-11, W.Nr.2200?? coded "White <58/Red 4" of VFS des G.d.J/JV44
Fw190D-11, W.Nr.220014 coded "White <61" of VFS des G.d.J
Fw190D-11, W.Nr.2200xx coded "White <<-" of VFS des G.d.J

With regards the Fw190D-11 "Red 4" serving with Platzschutzstaffel of JV44, the authors say that there is no substantial evidence that this was originally the V58 and that it was production D-11 from the 220xxx block. They also go on to say that it did not have a flat canopy
Incidently, I'm starting to see signs of a controversy over the identification of "Red 4" as "V58" :wink:

NOW - interestingly, there's a SLIGHTY different pic on there of "Fw190D-11, W.Nr.220009 coded "White <<" of "Verbandsführerschule des G.d.J""....and thus there is PICTURE evidence that it's a D-11...

I-M, if you look caefully at it, unlike the pic you posted above it shows the engine cowling both INTACT and NO CANNON! Which makes it NOT a D-9 and almost certainly a D-11 whatever it's identity!

And BELOW it...
Fw190D-11, W.Nr.220011 coded "V57" of "Verbandsführerschule des G.d.J"
AGAIN definitely a D-11 as no cowling-mounted cannon :wink:

BUT just look at what it says below the pic of W.Nr 220011!
This plane was converted from a Fw190A-8 & original coded GV+CY with W.Nr.170926
After connversion it got the W.Nr. 220011
!!! 8O :)
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 14 Nov 2009, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”