Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

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David C. Clarke
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Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#1

Post by David C. Clarke » 24 Jan 2010, 04:28

Hi Folks, can anyone tell me the number of tanks (Fiat Ansaldo L6/40) assigned to the LXVII Battaglione Beragolieri Corrazzato in December of 1942?

As a second question, can anyone tell me the number of assault guns (Semovente L40 da 47/32) assigned to the XIII Grupo Cavalleggeri di Allessandria in December 1942? Any help would be much appreciated.

I've read that 44 L6/40s were sent to Russia, but I don't know if the unit composition accommodates this number. As for the semoventes, I've never seen the number sent to Russia.

Best Regards,
David

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#2

Post by Ironmachine » 24 Jan 2010, 09:18

In http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... =20&t=1392 the following numbers were given:
III "San Giorgio" Fast Tank Group: from summer 1941 to spring 1942, 4 troops on 61 L3 tanks

LXVII Armored Bersaglieri Battalion: from spring 1942 to winter 1943, 2 companies on 31 L6 tanks

XIII/14° "Alessandria Light Cavalry" Squadron: from spring 1942 to winter 1943, 2 troops on 19 47mm semoventi


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Peter H
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#3

Post by Peter H » 25 Jan 2010, 04:40

This link also shows a MVSN tank unit?
http://mvsn.forumcommunity.net/?t=10600754
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#4

Post by Peter H » 25 Jan 2010, 04:47

Did the Italians ever use captured Soviet armour?

Some photos here: http://mvsn.forumcommunity.net/?t=11635207
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James A Pratt III
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#5

Post by James A Pratt III » 28 Jan 2010, 01:06

Yes they did use a least one POW t-34 and I think one POW M-3 Lee medium and possibly a few others.

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David C. Clarke
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#6

Post by David C. Clarke » 28 Jan 2010, 02:00

Nice thread so far guys. :D I am still looking for the answer to the question of how many tanks an Italian Light Tank Battalion would normally possess. I have information that such a Battalion would contain a headquarters company and two light tank companies. But while I have the organization of the headquarters company, I can't find figures for the composition of the tank companies.

Any thoughts?

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David

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Ironmachine
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jan 2010, 09:24

Peter H wrote:Did the Italians ever use captured Soviet armour?
It is known that Italians operated captured Soviet T34 tanks in 1943 on the Eastern Front. Exact numbers or modifications are unknown.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/


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Ironmachine
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#8

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jan 2010, 10:01

David C. Clarke wrote:I am still looking for the answer to the question of how many tanks an Italian Light Tank Battalion would normally possess. I have information that such a Battalion would contain a headquarters company and two light tank companies. But while I have the organization of the headquarters company, I can't find figures for the composition of the tank companies.
It seems that there was some variability...
2) L.3
1 x BHQ - 1 x L.3 (hq), 4-6 (two per coy) x L.3 (reserve), 8-12 (four per coy) x L.3 with flamethrowers
2-3 x CHQ - 1 x L.3 (hq)
6-9 x pto - 4 x L.3
Total for a 3-coy btn: 58 tanks (46 with dual MG + 12 with flamethrowers)
Total for a 2-coy btn: 39 tanks (31 + 8 )

When Ariete was sent to Libya in early 1941, its three light btns (the fourth was absent) had the 31+8 establishment. OTOH a number of btns seem to have had 46+0 tanks (since there were not enough flamethrowing tanks available).

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... =11&t=3425
Hope this helps...

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#9

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 28 Jan 2010, 17:25

The T34 in the last pictures was used by an artillery unit rather than an armoured unit.
Alan

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#10

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jan 2010, 18:29

Indeed... the 62º Gruppo, 120ª Reggimento d'Artigleria IIRC.
But the original question was "Did the Italians ever use captured Soviet armour?", not "Did the Italians ever use captured Soviet armour in their tank units?". :wink:

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#11

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 28 Jan 2010, 19:41

And I said anything different ? I was merely pointing out that the T34 was used by an artillery unit which as it was Italian helps answer the question. :P :P :P
Alan

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#12

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jan 2010, 22:41

Some more information about captured Soviet tanks employed by the Italians (in French and Italian, should not be too dificult to understand, but I can provide a translation if anyone needs it):
Les véhicules blindés - I veicoli blindati
En 1942, l’ARMIR captura une quantité assez importante de véhicules, à savoir 14 chars et 2 automitrailleuses selon l’article de Vincent Greenwood paru dans le Tankette 34/5 de 1999, intitulé Red Panzers for the Mare Nostrum. Parmi eux, le plus « médiatisé » fut le T-34/76 B (en fait un T34/76 STZ, produit par la fabrique de tracteurs de Stalingrad) employé comme véhicule de commandem
ent par le LII° Gruppo du 120° Reggimento d’Artiglieria de la 3ª Divisione Celere durant l’été 1942.
In 1942, l’ARMIR robeva molti veicoli: 14 carri, 2 automitragliatrici secondo l’articolo di Vincent Greenwood apparito nel Tankette 34/5 di 1999, di cui il nome è: Red Panzers for the Mare Nostrum. Il carro più conosciuto fu il T.34/76 utilizzato come veicolo di commando dal LII° gruppo del 120° Reggimento d’Artiglieria della 3a divisione celere durante l’estato 1942.
Un second T-34, de la première variante cette fois (76/A), fut récupéré par les Allemands et envoyé en Italie en 1941, dans un centre d’étude, pour subir plusieurs évaluations qui permettront d’améliorer le futur P40.
Un secondo T-34, della prima variante questa volta (76A) ; fu recuperato dai tedeschi e mandato in Italia in 1941 in un centro di studio per avere molte valutazioni che permettranno di migliorare il futuro P40.
Parmi les véhicules capturés et réemployés par les italiens, on peut citer quelques BT-7M, un T-60 (au moins), un T-70 et un char amphibie T-37. Mais il n’y eut pas uniquement des véhicules blindés d’origine russe, puisqu’une photo atteste de la capture d’un M3 Grant américain en URSS, qui ne fut cependant pas, a priori, réutilisé.
Fra I veicoli rubati e utilizzati dagli italiani, possiamo citare alcuni BT-7M, un T-60 (almeno) un T-70 e un carro anfibio T-37. Ma non ci ebbe soltanto veicoli blindati di nascita russa, poiché una foto mostra la cattura di un M3 Grant americano in URSS che non fu, a priori, riusato.
Un lance-roquettes Katioucha BM13-16 sur châssis Austin K-6 fut testé par le 14° Reparto Sperimentale de la 8° Armata Artiglieria du capitano Sartori. Il décida de l’employer pour répondre aux tirs des engins russes, et c’est ainsi que ce Katioucha couvrit la retraite italienne à Starobelsk et Kupiansk du 20 décembre 1942 au 18 janvier 1943. Etant donné que le moteur de l’Austin K-6 était irrémédiablement endommagé, un tracteur TL37 fut utilisé pour lui rendre sa mobilité.
Un lancia razzi Katioucha BM 13-16 su telaio Austin K-6 fu testato dal 14°reparto sperimentale della 8a armata artiglieria del capitano Sartori. Decise di utilizzarlo per difendersi contro i russi. Cosi, questo Katioucha ha tutelato le ritirata italiana a Starobelsk e Kubiansk dal 20/12/42 al 18/01/43. Il motore dell’Austin K-6 era veramente deteriorato si che un trattore TL37 fu usato per rendergli la sua mobilità.
On peut encore citer un train blindé capturé en 1942 mais non réutilisé par les Italiens. Il fut sans doute cédé au génie ferroviaire allemand. Il était composé entre autres de deux wagons d’artillerie, dotés de deux tourelles armées chacune d’un canon de 76,2 mm L/30 Mod. 02 couplé avec une mitrailleuse DT calibre 7,62mm, en plus des 4 mitrailleuses Mod.09 calibre 7,62 de type Maxim réparties sur les flancs de chaque wagon.
Si puo ancora citare un treno blidato catturato in 1942 ma non riusato dagli italiani. Fu, senza dubbio, mollato al genio ferroviario tedesco. Era fatto di due vagoni d’artiglieria, dotati di due torrette armate per ogniuna di un cannone di 76.2mm L/30Mod.02, abbinato con una mitragliatrice DT calibro 7.62mm, in più delle Quattro mitragliatrici Mod.09calibro7.62 di modello Maxim, ripartite sui fianchi di ogni vagone.
http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/histoir ... eurss.html

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Peter H
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#13

Post by Peter H » 29 Jan 2010, 08:50

Ta,thanks for the information.

Peter

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David C. Clarke
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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#14

Post by David C. Clarke » 30 Jan 2010, 03:00

The reason I initially brought up the topic of the composition of Italian Light Tank units is both simple and complicated. Check out the map on this thread and note the position of Division Celere:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1424955

To my knowledge, LXVII Battaglione Beragolieri Corrazzato was assigned to Division Celere in late 1942 when the Russian offenisive "Little Saturn" destroyed the Italian line. The remnants of Celere retreated with what is called Blocco Sud to the Southeast. Blocco Nord, consisting of the remnants of Divisions Pasubio, Ravenna and Cosseria retreated in another direction and passed through Arbusow, where there was a huge fight with Russian blocking forces. It is described in Corti's book "Few Returned".

So, what puzzled me was a Russian book with pictures of both L6/40s and Semovente L40 da 47/32s knocked out, according to the caption, "in the vicinity of Arbusow". Now I ask, where did these armored vehicles come from????

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David

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Re: Italian Tank Units in Russia 1942

#15

Post by Ironmachine » 30 Jan 2010, 10:19

Well, AFAIK the LXVII Battalion and the XIII/14º Squadron were the only Italian "armored" units in the East Front at that date, and both were part of the Celere division. But there are a number of possibilities that could explain their presence in the vicinity of Arbusow. Leaving aside the possibility that the caption in the Russian book was mistaken, it is possible that some units of the PADA Division had been attached previously to "Little Saturn" to other divisions, and they retreated with them. Or it is possible that the retreat was not so clear-cut as you have posted regarding the divisions included in Blocco Nord. For example, take a look at
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... =11&t=2712
Here "Torino" is included in Blocco Nord, while parts of Pasubio are said to have finally joined Blocco Sud, so it is possible that at least parts of PADA joined Blocco Nord. In fact, as figthing at Chertkovo with units of Blocco Nord a Gruppo Manari is shown, that is supposedly formed from fragments from the 3rd Bersaglieri Regiment, which was a unit from the Celere division. So there is a real possibility that some AFV from the LXVII Battalion and the XIII/14º Squadron ended up at Arbusow.

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