On a neo-nazi/anti-Semitic discussion forum called
“Air Photo Evidence Comments”,
to be reached under
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2 ,
on a thread with a title revealing the author’s state of mind, to be reached under
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
Interesting.A certain Tmoran wrote: For the Holocaust story there are perhaps some hundreds of tales and reports that tell about alleged mass graves of Jews killed by the Germans. Almost all the reports originated out of Bolshevik Russia. One of these reports was about how the Germans killed some 4,000 Poles at the Katyn forest. Darn thing was about 200 pages long and found its way into the Nuremburg trials. But then something went amiss. It turned out that the Germans had been directed to the forest by the Poles and there they found the mass graves and they went on to do a forensic excavation. The German report was and is so slam dunk that the Russians eventually had to admit to being the ones that had committed the mass extermination. This what the documentation shows the Germans did and how they went about establishing credibility: In addition to commentary the German report includes scores of photos of the forensic investigation. Aerial shots of the graves as they were being uncovered and the bodies being disinterred. Photos of Polish civilians in trenches digging out the bodies. Close up photos of the hands of the victims tied behind their backs. Photos of many skulls showing the results of the general mode of execution - a shot in the back of the head. Photos of the bodies laid out for attempted identification. Photos of personal belongings found on the victims. Photos of the field lab set up by the Germans. Photos of Western Allied journalists invited in by the Germans to witness the excavation and view the determining evidence such as identifications. letters and other documents found on the bodies that determined the date of the massacres. Photos of Western Allied forensic experts viewing the same thing. Photos of Western Allied POW military officers witnessing the proceeding.
The German Katyn investigation as the measure of all things.
No massacre can be considered proven unless it there has been a forensic investigation like the one the Germans performed at Katyn, says Moran.
So in Moran’s bizarre world, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin is responsible only for the killing of those 4,000-odd Polish offices whose bodies were found and investigated at Katyn.
Moran comes through as an apologist of the Nazi system, trying to free it from the damning evidence of its monstrous crimes in the name of whatever his agenda is.
But I’m surprised that he’s also a most radical supporter and apologist of Josef Stalin, such as you will hardly find even among hard-bitten Stalinists in the former Soviet Union.
How does it go on, Moran ?Continuiong his bizarre reasoning, Tmoran wrote:Here's some excerpt from an account of what the Russians say they found for German massacres. It was recently posted to this board by an admirer of Max. "Excellent posts, Max! Let me add an excerpt from the report of a Soviet investigation commission in Zhitomir, 5 to 16.02.1944." Source: West German criminal trial procedure Js 4/65 GstA Frankfurt/Main, Russian files, Volume 1, quoted in Klee/Dressen, "Gott mit uns": Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg in Osten 1939-1945, pages 31 and following. What follows is my translation of the German text, which is a translation of the Russian original. Quote: "The commission of forensic medical experts, composed of: professor Voronyj Ju., the physicians Stoliza, B., Iskra F.I., Skalkij M.N., in the presence of the Representative of the Extraordinary State Commission, Candidate of Law Vjel’nikov D.G, the members of the Zhitomior Regional Support Commission: the Reverend Father Feodot Tysljukjevich, Kharchenko, K.S., Colonel Shapovalov. Roshanchuk N.M. and a great number of local inhabitants, established that the fascist German occupants and their helpers shot local inhabitants at the following places: 1) 500 meters to the south of the factory [German: Vorwerk] Dovshik, which is located in the forest 10 kilometres away from the city of Zhitomir, two shooting sites and places of burial for corpses were found. At first two places were found along the way ... Six graves were found, from which 962 human corpses of both sexes and various ages were exhumed. Then ... an area of two hectares was found which was fenced in by wire three meters high among which thick oak branches had been woven which couldn’t be looked through from the outside. On this area 13 graves were found, ... When the graves were opened a male corpse, the rests of a corpse partially eaten by fire and a huge number of human bones were found. During the exhumation a strong smell of corpses was noticeable. The witnesses present at the exhumation stated that at the location ... Eyewitnesses had observed that during one month smoke had gone up from the fenced-in place, ... The commission of forensic medical experts reached the conclusion that on the mentioned area burials and later exhumations and burning of human corpses, not less than 20,000 in number, had taken place. ... When opening the graves 14,110 corpses were found. There was found a whole grave full of bodies that were completely unclad. ... " The following is the documentation outside of the words that shows the account is credible –
If you haven’t seen the “documentation outside the words”, that don’t mean it doesn’t exist.
According to Alan Bullock, reports of Soviet Investigation Commissions are two million pages long, and only small parts of that have reached the West. We know more about the Katyn investigation because Goebbels made a big propaganda show about it, but that doesn't mean Soviet investigations of German massacres were unsupported or unprofessional.
Also, if you think the account isn’t credible, isn’t it for you to provide proof or at least significant indications that there is something wrong with it?
The “admirer of Max” was myself, and the post Moran referred to was the following:
The above was written on Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:02 am on the threadJonathan Swift wrote:Excellent posts, Max!Max wrote: Evidence from the Estonian State Archives of the Former Estonian KGB (State Security Committee) records relating to war crime investigations and trials in Estonia, 1940-1987. - Forensic examination of a mass grave near Kovno - Photograph of mass grave near Tartu - Military procurator's statement on examination of mass grave site in company of accused Kullamaa, May 23, 1956. - Sketch of execution site near town of Paide. - Statement on exhumation of remains, May 23, 1956. - Forensic examination of remains - Photos of remains - Baltic Fleet "Smersh" report on mass killings in Birkeneks woods near Riga - Forensic report on mass killings in the Riga area, December 12, 1944. - Photos of killings, bodies, mass graves. Source: http://www.ushmm.org/
Let me add an excerpt from the report of a Soviet investigation commission in Zhitomir, 5 to 16.02.1944. Source: West German criminal trial procedure Js 4/65 GstA Frankfurt/Main, Russian files, Volume 1, quoted in Klee/Dressen, "Gott mit uns": Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg in Osten 1939-1945, pages 31 and following. What follows is my translation of the German text, which is a translation of the Russian original.
[…]The commission of forensic medical experts, composed of: professor Voronyj Ju., the physicians Stoliza, B., Iskra F.I., Skalkij M.N., in the presence of the Representative of the Extraordinary State Commission, Candidate of Law Vjel’nikov D.G, the members of the Zhitomior Regional Support Commission: the Reverend Father Feodot Tysljukjevich, Kharchenko, K.S., Colonel Shapovalov. Roshanchuk N.M. and a great number of local inhabitants, established that the fascist German occupants and their helpers shot local inhabitants at the following places:
1) 500 meters to the south of the factory [German: “Vorwerk”] Dovshik, which is located in the forest 10 kilometres away from the city of Zhitomir, two shooting sites and places of burial for corpses were found. At first two places were found along the way that leads to the N.-Volynsk street at kilometre 9 from the Dovshik factory. Six graves were found, from which 962 human corpses of both sexes and various ages were exhumed. Then on the way leading from this factory to the street at kilometre 8 an area of two hectares was found which was fenced in by wire three meters high among which thick oak branches had been woven which couldn’t be looked through from the outside. On this area 13 graves were found, with the measurements 16 x 2 x 2.5 meters. When the graves were opened a male corpse, the rests of a corpse partially eaten by fire and a huge number of human bones were found. During the exhumation a strong smell of corpses was noticeable. The witnesses present at the exhumation stated that at the location sighted civilian citizens had been shot and also buried in the course of the years 1941/42. In July 1943 this site had been fenced in, and guards had also been posted. Eyewitnesses had observed that during one month smoke had gone up from the fenced-in place, which had had an extremely foul smell and spread in such a way that it could still be sensed in the houses of the Dovshik factory, 500 – 600 meters away from the place. The commission of forensic medical experts reached the conclusion that on the mentioned area burials and later exhumations and burning of human corpses, not less than 20,000 in number, had taken place.
2) South of the N.-Volynsk street, 8 kilometres away from Zhitomir, in the forest along the way leading to the village of Barachevka, 28 graves and two uncovered pits were discovered. When opening the graves 14,110 corpses were found. There was found a whole grave full of bodies that were completely unclad. In one grave was found the corpse of a women who had a bind with a huge red cross on her arm. A large part of the bodies had their hands tied with wire or strips. In one of the uncovered pits four well-conserved corpses were found, 3 men and one women. In the clothes of the male corpse papers on the name Vlassov, F.I., resident at Zhitomir, Proviantskaja 13/14, were found. The dead man’s wife, Mrs. Vlassova A.C., stated that he had been arrested by the Gestapo in Dezember 1943 because he was under suspicion of having hidden Jews and kept a rifle in his appartment.[…]
Zhitomir, as we know, was the place where Einsatzgruppe C, according to OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No. 106, 7 October 1941, shot 3,145 Jews on 19 September 1941. The excerpt from the report, as translated under
http://www.nizkor.net/hweb/orgs/german/ ... r-106.html reads as follows:
The Soviet Commission's investigation cited before suggest that this was by no means the only massacre committed by German forces in the area of Zhitomir.[…]Zhitomir, action against the Jews The Militia headquarters, according to a suggestion of Sonderkommando 4a, arranged a temporary, local concentration of Jews in Zhitmmir. This resulted in a quieter atmosphere, for example, in the markets, etc. At the same time, obstinate rumors diminished and it seemed that together with the concentration of the Jews, the Communists, too, lost much ground. However, it became obvious after a few days that concentration of the Jews without building a ghetto did not suffice, and that the old difficulties emerged again after a short while. Complaints about the impertinence of the Jews in their various places of work stemmed from various quarters. It was noted that strong propaganda activity among the Ukrainians, claiming that the Red Army would return very soon into the areas that had been taken away from them, had their origin in the Jewish quarter. The local militia was shot at, at night, and even in the daytime from an ambush. It was also established that Jews exchanged their belongings for money in order to move into Western Ukraine where a civil administration already exists. All these phenomena could be observed. However, it was possible to get hold of the involved Jews only in the rarest cases, as they had sufficient opportunities to evade arrest. Therefore, a conference was called together with military H.Q. on September 10, 1941. The resulting decision was the final and radical liquidation of the Jews of Zhitomir, since all warnings [threats] and special measures [punishments] had not led to any perceptible change. On September 19, 1941, from 4 o'clock [a.m.], the Jewish quarter was emptied after having been surrounded and closed the previous evening by 60 members of the Ukrainian militia. The transport [deportation] was accomplished in 12 trucks, part of which had been supplied by military headquarters and part by the city administration of Zhitomir. After the transport had been carried out and the necessary preparations made with the help of 150 prisoners, 3,145 Jews were registered and shot.[my emphasis][…]
“No Massgraves”
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3587da4d46
I don’t think my points were all that bad.
There is one German document referring to a massacre which took place where the Soviet commission discovered many more dead bodies. Convergence of two independent elements of evidence.
I could have added that there were two trials before West German courts about the Einsatzgruppen killings at Zhitomir and other places, with guilty verdicts. If you read German, look here for the summaries:
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortfr.htm (Shitomir, icons "694" and "805")
I could also have provided other examples of convergence between such excerpts of the obviously very volumous and detailed Soviet forensic investigations that have been published in the west on the one hand and other evidence, such as German reports, diary entries and official correspondence, eyewitness testimonies and confessions of defendants before independent courts, on the other.
But the moderator of the Air Photo forum, a deplorable creature who also contributes his own unbelievably idiotic drivel under the nym “Hannover”, got so scared of my posts, and those of Max I referred to, that he deleted almost all of them. The one mentioned above was among the victims.
What is more, I was banned from the forum, without that even being announced, despite a request of mine that it be, maybe so the fellow Nazi scum could feel they had bested me with arguments (LOL, I would be knocking them all over the place if the moderator had not first censored and then banned me). So were other contributors who tried to knock some sense into that pack. One of them was Max.
But if they think they’ve seen the last of me, they are wrong.
I hereby invite Mr. Moran, the gentleman who driveled around about a post of mine that had been deleted by the moderator (there was another joker who did the same on another topic, by the way, I’ll come back to that later), to continue the discussion on the mass graves with me here, on this forum.
Moran and the moderator will be informed of this thread by E-mail.
Let’s see if one of them has the guts to step outside his secure fortress.
I understand that this forum here allows open debate and, despite a statement against Holocaust denial in its guidelines, includes so-called Revisionists among its most active contributors, so Moran and "Moderator"/"Hannover" can’t come up with the crap that they fear censorship over here.
Let’s see what happens.
Comments from everybody are welcome.
But if Moran and/or "Hannover" should show up, please leave them to me alone.
Best,
JS
