Was Italy any good on the battlefields?

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
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Willem
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Was Italy any good on the battlefields?

#1

Post by Willem » 19 Feb 2003, 14:07

Can any one tell me,please, if the Italian army had any signficant succes on any battlefield during WWII?
Was the Italian Naval strength any good?


The Mare Nostrum idea was never a goal that could be achieved by any standards

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Lupo Solitario
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#2

Post by Lupo Solitario » 19 Feb 2003, 21:14

It depends by the level you consider:

-at divisional level, you can consider Bir el Gobi (November 1941), Keren (February 1941), Serafimovich (July 1942), the role of Folgore at Alamein (November 1942), Nikolajewka (January 1943)

-at corps level, you have Stalino (october 1941), Don (august 1942)

-at army level, the Mareth (March 1943) and, if you want, the establishement of the standing line in albania in decmeber 1940 notwithstanding generals and logistics

I'm only telling first episodes which are coming in my mind. I don't list episodes under divisional level. Logically, difensive engagements against overwhelming forces are considered only in function of delay time gained.

About italian navy, it's a complicated question...substantially italian naval forces suffered for many wrong pre-war choices and for the weakness of leadership. Italy was doomed to lose on long time against UK but there were spaces for better jobs

bye
Lupo


gabriel pagliarani
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#3

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 19 Feb 2003, 23:24

Is this a poll? an enquiry? or a provocation? ..better it was in telling us what do you think about. :?

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Willem
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#4

Post by Willem » 20 Feb 2003, 08:45

I,m sorry, but I meant what Lupo Solitaria wrote.
Is there a site where I can these combat actions?
I know very little about those subjects, it would be a great help.


Kind regards,
Willem

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Lupo Solitario
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#5

Post by Lupo Solitario » 20 Feb 2003, 22:42

http://www.comandosupremo.com is the best starting point I can suggest

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GLADIVM
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#6

Post by GLADIVM » 21 Feb 2003, 06:44

Italian biggest victory of WWII was the occupation of British Somalia , perhaps it was not a major action for the standards of WWII but the Britsh were compelled to evacuate Somaliland against the wishes of Churchill who hoped to avoid withdrawal .

There is an earlier thread discussing this campaign if you tipe British Somalia , surely can find it .
Yours

GLADIVM

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Musashi
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#7

Post by Musashi » 21 Feb 2003, 16:36

Hallo!/Ciao!

"Folgore" on Pantalleria fought very bravely. I know about Italian cavalry charge in the Soviet Union. Could anybody write more about it?
Regards

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SM79Sparviero
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courage alone

#8

Post by SM79Sparviero » 22 Feb 2003, 02:53

Everybody know what happened at Tobruk when the British Argyll marines had to face Italian marines of San Marco ( 200 British prisoneers), when the British torpedo boats were defeated by 5 italian motozattere ( motorcrafts) and a Tribal class flotilla-leader ( i don't remember.....
Sikh?Zulu?) was sunk by two 120 mm guns of the harbour.
I could speak about the raiders-frogmen who sunk the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, the cruiser York sunk in Suda by a Barchino Esplosivo, something like a japanese Kaiten, the torpedo-boat Lupo that fought with the cruiser Ajax , 30 mts far using its 20 mm machine guns,The submarine Torricelli that sunk the destroyer Karthoum using its 100/47 mm gun fighting in surface with 3 vessels.
Destroyers Bedouin and Partridge sunk by the 152 mm guns of the light cruisers Eugenio di Savoia and Duca d' Aosta.
Air gunner Aviere Scelto Pietro Bonannini ace of italian gunners,from a sardinian "lupara" to a SAFAT 12.7 machine gun and his fast modern floatplane FIAT RS-14( too few,too late).....3 Spitfires and 2 Beaufighters didn't come back.....

The problems of Italian armed forces weren't the soldiers but the GENERALS.A real gerontology.

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SM79Sparviero
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"it was faster than our torpedoes"

#9

Post by SM79Sparviero » 22 Feb 2003, 13:09

...no spaghetti for breakfast today".This is the first message from the Commander of MTB260 after the night of July, 17, 1943.
At 02.04 the motor-torpedo boats MTB 260,315, 313 and 316 launched 6 torpedoes at an unknown italian ship.
The British sailormen could not know that it was the ship that Tazio Nuvolari maybe would have chosen if he had been a navy commander: The light cruiser Scipione Africano, class Capitani Romani, according to Storia Militare and Rivista Italian Difesa it could be more appropriately classified as a powerful destroyer or flotilla leader than a cruiser , the most powerful destroyer even built, 4800 tons of displacement, 8- 135 mm guns, 8 torpedo tubes , 110.000( !) horsepower turbines and 42 knots at trials.
Non match for the French Volta and Le Terrible, for the Tribals, for the German Z-class and , with a better training for the italian sailormen, neither for the formidable Japanese Long Lancers.....
The ship ,as many italian ones didn't have a radar but the sailormen since 1941-42 ,too late for the war, had been well trained for night fightings. When the torpedo boats were seen Commander Capitano di Fregata Pellegrini ordered to increase the RPM of the turbines, easily avoided the 6 torpedoes and directed the ship towards the enemy.The Commander of the MTB260 increased the speeed at 38 KNots buth he realized the italian ship was approaching much faster( "over 41 knots...like a mountain that is flying against you"), faster than the torpedoes....Scipione Africano sunk MTB 316 only with the power of his kinetic energy of 4800 tons at 41 knots, and MTB 315 with the fire of 37/54 mm machine guns. The last two torpedo boats miracolously succedeed in escaping and came back severely damaged.
Italian people should learn the tipically British humour and auto-irony also in defeats: "today no spaghetti for breakfast"....
Attachments
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Scout Scipione Africano
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Musashi
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#10

Post by Musashi » 22 Feb 2003, 17:17

Ciao!
Please continue. Its interesting. I would like to know more.
Best regards

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Peter H
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#11

Post by Peter H » 23 Feb 2003, 12:47

Kesserling on the Italian soldier:

I have seen much too many heroic performances of
Italian units and individuals--such as the Folgore
Division near El Alamein, the artillery in the Tunisian
battles, the crews of the Kleinstkampfmittel (smallest
means of combat such as one man torpedoes) of the Navy,
the crews of torpedo boats, the units of torpedo
bombers, etc.--not to express this opinion with
conviction. But the decision [outcome] in a war is not
brought about by top performances of individuals but by
the training condition and morale of the entire
army. It is therefore wrong to represent the Italian
soldiers and the Italian people all together as
militarily inferior and unsuitable for a tough war.. In
this context, Mussoloni and his former state
secretaries are either guilty of gross neglect, or
Mussolini is definitely guilty of not having desisted
from war if he was aware of these precarious gaps.

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Napoli
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#12

Post by Napoli » 24 Feb 2003, 10:49

Site concerning Folgore missions and history.



http://members.tripod.com/~nembo/nembopage.html

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Napoli
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#13

Post by Napoli » 24 Feb 2003, 10:58

On 23 Agust 1942 600 men of the regiment Savoia Cavalleria face in steppes of Isbuschenski very superior soviet forces, about 2400 Russians with artillery and mortar support.
The regiment Savoia Cavalleria, led by Col. Alessandro Bettoni, attacked in the morning of its 250th anniversary (it had been founded by Gian Michele Piossasco de' Rossi on 24 August 1692) shouting "Avanti Savoia!". The losses of the enemy were: 150 dead, 300 wounded, 500 prisoners (among them also the command of a battalion), 4 guns, 10 mortars, 50 machine-guns and hundreds of rifles. Savoia Cavalleria lost: 32 deads (3 officers), 52 wounded and 100 horses.

Thanks given to "Drive" at Comando supreme website for this info that I'd lost.


From my own sources, this Italian action took place with the use of sabres only and was an eye opener when I first came across it a few months back.
It was the last true large scale cavalry charge in history in the way it was completed in that the orders for "trot, gallop, charge!!" were used in the true sense as oppossed to more like a light horsemen or mounted riflemen.

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Napoli
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#14

Post by Napoli » 24 Feb 2003, 11:07

Kesserling spoke well when mentioning those words and was true to the point. For all the research I've been through there is much conflict about Italians, and for that matter many other smaller Axis nations like Italy.
At the end of the day, they all had their good points and bad points.
SM79Sparviero, I've never seen that destroyer, thankyou for the nice story :lol:
My one concern from some of the Italian nationals, would be how is the army today? Will the same fate happen if it was go to war tomorow in terms of preparedness, as since leaving the country many years ago at a young age, these things slip me by now but my brother seems to think alot of American gear is still there including rocket silo's etc compensating for some Italian infrastructure?
Bye

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Musashi
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#15

Post by Musashi » 25 Feb 2003, 20:04

[EDITED - A MISTAKE]
Last edited by Musashi on 03 Jul 2005, 21:09, edited 6 times in total.

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