Suggested reading - Telling Lies about Hitler

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Maple 01
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Suggested reading - Telling Lies about Hitler

#1

Post by Maple 01 » 21 Feb 2003, 23:09

Gents,

I came across this book in the local Ocktar's bookshop, it may be of some interest to members of this forum.

Telling Lies About Hitler
by Richard J Evans, Verso books 2002, ISBN 1-85984-417-0

jacket blurb:
In April 2000 a High Court judge branded writer David Irving a racist, an anti-Semite, a Holocaust denier and a falsifier of history. The key expert witness against Irving was the historian Richard J Evans who describes here, in a book which several publishers have been intimidated into withdrawing, his involvement in the case. Recounting his discovery of Irving's connections to the far-right Holocaust deniers in the US and of how Irving falsified the documentary evidence on the Second World War, Evans reflects generally and eloquently on the interaction of historical and legal rules of evidence.
Irving brought a libel case against an American author, Deborah Lipstadt, claiming that she had unfairly accused him of falsifying historical research and knowingly publishing work that lied about the atrocities of the Third Reich, thus ruining his reputation as an ‘historian’.

The libel case was heard in London and Lipstat was exonerated. Punitive damages were awarded against Irving

The book rips apart Irving and destroys any notion that the man is a serious historian, it goes even further than Lipstadt’s work. It exposes his lies and manipulations and documents his reaction on being caught-out time and time again.

Perhaps now no-one will quote this man again.

Regards

-Nick

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witness
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#2

Post by witness » 21 Feb 2003, 23:30

I read the Evans book . Very revealing.
I read two of the Irving books - "The trail of the Fox " about Rommel and another one about Hess ( don't remember the title now ).
Frankly it was quite interesting to read them but now I stopped reading his books. Because there is no sense in trying to find out about some historical facts when you don't know whether what the author writes is truth or just his wishful thinking .

"Mind is a terrible thing to waste " :(


Dan
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#3

Post by Dan » 22 Feb 2003, 01:15

Perhaps now no-one will quote this man again.
Sir John Keegan is probably the most respected Third Reich historian in the English speaking world, and after the trial he said that Irving has taught us lots in the past, and has all the qualities of a great historian, but has a chip on his shoulder.

Then he said Lipstadt is boring, self-righteous, politically correct and no one had ever heard of her before the trial, and no serious historian will be interested in anything she writes in the future.

Irving is still quoted, as Christopher Hichens recently pointed out, and will continue to be quoted. I just wish he could stop with the lawsuits.

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#4

Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Feb 2003, 01:52

Dan wrote:
Perhaps now no-one will quote this man again.
Sir John Keegan is probably the most respected Third Reich historian in the English speaking world, and after the trial he said that Irving has taught us lots in the past, and has all the qualities of a great historian, but has a chip on his shoulder.

Then he said Lipstadt is boring, self-righteous, politically correct and no one had ever heard of her before the trial, and no serious historian will be interested in anything she writes in the future.
You drastically overstate Keegan's profile. His views of Irving changes nothing about what has been proven against him. He will lie and distort evidence when it suits him to exonerate Hitler specifically, and National Socialism generally.

Keegans' assessment of Lipstadt is emotional bombast.
Irving is still quoted, as Christopher Hichens recently pointed out, and will continue to be quoted. I just wish he could stop with the lawsuits.
But you're not concerned about his dishonesty, racism and antisemitism?

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#5

Post by Dan » 22 Feb 2003, 02:06

Well, I could be overstating Keegan's credentials. How would you rate him? Who are the top three in your opinion? I'm sure Mr. Kaschner hates to be used as "exemplar" as often as he is, and I wonder if that's not one of the reasons he doesn't post very often, but he said the same thing about Keegan.
But you're not concerned about his dishonesty, racism and antisemitism?
I'm concerned about those things in everybody that displays them, and Irving does occasionally, IMHO.

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#6

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Feb 2003, 04:57

If Keegan says that Lipstadt is a zero, you can believe it.

If Lipstadt says that Irving is a liar, you can disbelieve it.

In the long run Irving is the winner.

Deal with it.
:)

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#7

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 05:28

Scott Smith wrote:If Keegan says that Lipstadt is a zero, you can believe it.

If Lipstadt says that Irving is a liar, you can disbelieve it.

In the long run Irving is the winner.

Deal with it.
:)
:lol: In the long run Irving is a loser. Deal with it .
Did you forget who filed the suit and who lost lost the case ?
Wishful thinking is not easy to cure I guess .
Have you contracted it from reading the Irving books..? :D
Sweet dreams. :D
P.S.It is not that only Lipstadt says he is a liar ..
Last edited by witness on 22 Feb 2003, 05:31, edited 1 time in total.

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#8

Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Feb 2003, 05:30

Scott Smith wrote:If Keegan says that Lipstadt is a zero, you can believe it.

If Lipstadt says that Irving is a liar, you can disbelieve it.

In the long run Irving is the winner.

Deal with it.
Irving has been proven a liar, and Liptstadt helped prove it.

Lipstadt's standing as an historian has nothing to do with the fact that Irving's reputation has been ruined.

But it does bother some that an uppity Jew stood up to the man who likes to deprive others of free speech and beat him at his own game.

Live with it!

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#9

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Feb 2003, 05:34

And Lipstadt and her lawyers won't get a dime because Irving's books are now free for all to enjoy.
:D

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witness
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#10

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 05:36

Scott Smith wrote:And Lipstadt and her lawyers won't get a dime because Irving's books are now free for all to enjoy.
:D
Is it because they are worth of nothing since nobody knows where exactly he is lying in his books ? :lol:

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#11

Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Feb 2003, 05:40

Scott Smith wrote:And Lipstadt and her lawyers won't get a dime because Irving's books are now free for all to enjoy.
We'll see if they get anything.

But Irving will always be what he was shown to be.

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Historians and Heretics...

#12

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Feb 2003, 06:03

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:And Lipstadt and her lawyers won't get a dime because Irving's books are now free for all to enjoy.
:D
Is it because they are worth of nothing since nobody knows where exactly he is lying in his books ? :lol:
Evidently Irving's books are worth something to put heterodox fears into Lipstadt and her fellow-travelers in the first place.
:wink:
Charles wrote:But Irving will always be what he was shown to be.
And Lipstadt and her fellow-travelers have shown what they are, Holo-McCarthyites who tried to suppress viewpoints that they don't like.

I prefer the American principle of free-speech, myself. Irving simply shouldn't have stooped to their level with his libel suit.
:)

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Re: Historians and Heretics...

#13

Post by witness » 22 Feb 2003, 06:24

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:And Lipstadt and her lawyers won't get a dime because Irving's books are now free for all to enjoy.
:D
Is it because they are worth of nothing since nobody knows where exactly he is lying in his books ? :lol:
Evidently Irving's books are worth something to put heterodox fears into Lipstadt and her fellow-travelers in the first place.
:wink:
Charles wrote:But Irving will always be what he was shown to be.
And Lipstadt and her fellow-travelers have shown what they are, Holo-McCarthyites who tried to suppress viewpoints that they don't like.

I prefer the American principle of free-speech, myself. Irving simply shouldn't have stooped to their level with his libel suit.
:)
No my dear intransigient fellow-traveler of Mr Irving - you are tragically mistaken. :D This is Mr Irving who sued Lipstadt for her opinion not the other way around . Therefore it was him who was "trying to suppress people's opinions " :)
Such people who apologize and extoll Hitler and Nazis ( who were the fiercest suppressors of ''free speech " themselves) are the real enemies of the principle of free speech..
Live with it - Irving's reputation is hopelessly ruined. :D
What is left for the poor lier - just to give out his books "for free'' .. :lol:
P.S. His reputation has not been ruined among all kind of marginalized wackos and neo-Nazis though if it can serve as a consolation to him .. :D

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Re:

#14

Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Feb 2003, 06:52

Charles wrote:But Irving will always be what he was shown to be.
And Lipstadt and her fellow-travelers have shown what they are, Holo-McCarthyites who tried to suppress viewpoints that they don't like.
Got it backwards as usual Smith.

It was Irving who tried to suppress viewpoints.

See what happens when you play spin the cliche instead of thinking!

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#15

Post by David Thompson » 22 Feb 2003, 07:25

Well, I think we've got the picture on Irving and his works. This particular bone of contention has been gnawed clean. Let's move on to something else.

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