Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

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The_Enigma
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Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#1

Post by The_Enigma » 09 Dec 2010, 13:51

Only touching on the periphery of the wars during my uni studies, the unanswered question arises just how did the Greeks win?

Scanning the internet, and from my own studies, one has learnt that the Persian Empire dominated/conquered/subdued its neighbours and basically asserted its will over portions of the Balkans, Asia Minor and the Middle East. Then it meets a couple of, in comparison, tiny – minute even – city states and get their asses handed to them by a few thousand "citizen soldiers"?

A key point to me seems to be Xerxes’ returned to his empire to put down rebellion, taking a chunk of the army with him; is it reasonable to suggest that this is the major strategic turning point – the division of resources resulting in the combined Greek army only facing a portion of the Persian army, the element that remained, hence their complete victory? No concentration of force, attention focused on internal affairs and not enough troops left to deal with the Greeks.

The Persian army was undoubtedly a powerful foe and able to defeat or force the submission of many of the northern Greek city-states. However the various reading I have done on the few key land battles seem to focus on the Athenian and Spartan hoplites that essentially describes them as an invincible land force that stream rolled over (quite literally) the Persian army whenever they faced each other. One gains the impression that some would write, had the entire Persian army remained in Greece the same outcome would have been achieved; the entire Persian army trampled over. Were a few single tactical battles really enough to decide the outcome of a war in the ancient world or was the strategic withdrawal of half (?) the Persian army, mentioned above, the turning point? Was the armoured hoplite the invinvible tactical behemoth that seems to be described that the Persian army was really unable to deal with it?

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#2

Post by LWD » 09 Dec 2010, 14:09

My first response would be logistics. The Persians simply couldn't bring the full weight of their army to bear vs the Greeks. Had they instead taken over the Balkans and established them as a base of supply then moved on the Greeks they might have had a better chance.

The propaganda from both sides also tended to make the individual Greek hoplite look better. The Persians tended to inflate their numbers to over awe their opponents. The Greeks tended to inflate the numbers of their opponents to make their performances more impressive. So you have claims for instance that the Persian army at Thermopoly numbered in the millions when it was likely less than 200,000 and maybe substantially less. (There was a book that came out in the 70's that looked at a number of ancient battles and tried to determine based on logistic limits what the sizes or at least the maximum sizes of the armies involved were, unfortunatlly I don't remember the title). Also, I believe modern scholorship indicates that the Greeks may have actually had an edge in numbers at Marathon in addition to the tactical advantages they possessed there.


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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#3

Post by The_Enigma » 09 Dec 2010, 14:54

Intresting thoughts. I have also seem over the net in the last week or so of glancing debate on the inflated numbers and quite some time ago i remember reading how the Persian army could have only numbered x due to the number of ships claimed to be in the fleet ... although i thought thats why they bridged the hellespont? :P

Your thoughts on the overclaiming to boost the preformance seems to go hand in hand with what one reads; small Greek numbers quite literally tramling over the tide of Persians. Although was it at Marathon where a monument was built with the name of each indvidual Greek/Athenian who died; something like 195? Still a small sum who the apparent climatic battle of Darius's (?) invasion.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#4

Post by LWD » 09 Dec 2010, 15:14

Ancient battles typically had fairly small numbers of fatalities unless one side broke and the other could follow up. Consider at Marathon:
1) The odds were near equal (it's not clear which side had the edge).
2) The Greek armor and formations were significantly supperior for close combat.
3) The Persians were caught trying to reembark.
4) The Persians apparently didn't expect the Greeks to launch a full out assault that quickly - i.e tactical suprise.
5) The Greeks had a both a strategic moral supeirority (they were fighting for thier homes) and a tactical one (they were advancing and the Persians were falling back)

The Persians did have a superior missile capability but when this didn't stop the Greeks in probably became more of a minus than a plus - even retreating light troops can cause moral and cohesion problems.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#5

Post by The_Enigma » 09 Dec 2010, 15:27

Intresting point number 3, somewhat kinda diminshes how one should view the entire battle. The climatic battle that repuslied the Persians from mainland Greece ... they were already departing. Why did Darius decide to withdraw prior to the battle?

To also note, iirc in the latter battles of Xerxes invasion Greeks also fought in the Persian army and navy.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#6

Post by LWD » 09 Dec 2010, 15:33

Marthon wasn't really the climatic battle. The withdrawl was so that the Persians could launch a direct ship born assault vs Athens while the Athenian army was at Marathon. Thus the importance of the runner getting back to Athens so quickly. There was a distinct possiblity that Athens would have surrendered to the Persian fleet after the battle of Marathon if they hadn't known of the Greek victory there.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#7

Post by Tim Smith » 09 Dec 2010, 16:40

The_Enigma wrote:Was the armoured hoplite the invinvible tactical behemoth that seems to be described that the Persian army was really unable to deal with it?
The Persian infantry themselves (NOT counting 'Medesized' Greek allies like the Thebans) could not cope with the Greek hoplite in head-to-head shoving matches. Their missile troops were too lightly armed for that and their spearmen too lightly armoured.

Persian battle tactics were dependent on mobility - outflanking the enemy and having time and space to do so, and also on the effectiveness of their missile troops. If they couldn't outflank, due to the limitations of terrain, they were in serious trouble. Thermopylae was an extreme case, but most Greek flat, level battlegrounds were relatively small, severely limiting flanking maneuvers. And missiles were of limited use against the very heavily armoured hoplites (except from the flank or rear, where they were quite effective.)

The Greek hoplites had the advantage over the Persians on small, confined Greek battlefields, but were at a disadvantage on huge, wide open Asian battlefields where the Persians could use their numbers, mobility, and superiority in cavalry to outflank them.

The Greeks always failed to decisively defeat Persia in Asia. Neither Sparta nor Athens managed the job. It took the non-Greek Macedonians to beat the Persians - because the Macedonians, unlike the Greeks, had an equestrian culture, a strong tradition of heavy cavalry. This Macedonian cavalry compensated for the slow and ponderous nature of heavy infantry, by preventing the Persian cavalry from outflanking them.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#8

Post by Hanny » 10 Dec 2010, 21:12

The_Enigma wrote:Only touching on the periphery of the wars during my uni studies, the unanswered question arises just how did the Greeks win?

Scanning the internet, and from my own studies, one has learnt that the Persian Empire dominated/conquered/subdued its neighbours and basically asserted its will over portions of the Balkans, Asia Minor and the Middle East. Then it meets a couple of, in comparison, tiny – minute even – city states and get their asses handed to them by a few thousand "citizen soldiers"?

A key point to me seems to be Xerxes’ returned to his empire to put down rebellion, taking a chunk of the army with him; is it reasonable to suggest that this is the major strategic turning point – the division of resources resulting in the combined Greek army only facing a portion of the Persian army, the element that remained, hence their complete victory? No concentration of force, attention focused on internal affairs and not enough troops left to deal with the Greeks.

The Persian army was undoubtedly a powerful foe and able to defeat or force the submission of many of the northern Greek city-states. However the various reading I have done on the few key land battles seem to focus on the Athenian and Spartan hoplites that essentially describes them as an invincible land force that stream rolled over (quite literally) the Persian army whenever they faced each other. One gains the impression that some would write, had the entire Persian army remained in Greece the same outcome would have been achieved; the entire Persian army trampled over. Were a few single tactical battles really enough to decide the outcome of a war in the ancient world or was the strategic withdrawal of half (?) the Persian army, mentioned above, the turning point? Was the armoured hoplite the invinvible tactical behemoth that seems to be described that the Persian army was really unable to deal with it?
No the hopolite was not the uber be all and end all, and Persia had more allied Hoplites than all the free greeks combined, so the hoplite was not *why* Greece won.

Persian startegic concept changed after the return, it was repalced by amphib combined arms to outmanouver the Greeks, and was largely suddessful, remeber it was the Persians who could power project to Greece and beyond, and Greeks had to learn how to do this from the Persiand befor Alexander was able to roll up persia, in this time pertiod, logistics was wht Perisia could do, and the Greeks were unable to come together in any meangful numbers and supply themselves over the short term.

What did Greece win?, or rather what did Perisia fail to win?. Well thats the 64k question, id go for Persian failling to win because it did not have to, while the Greeks had no other option.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35432905/The- ... thens-2010
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/9560921/Thr ... -for-Greek

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/2600

Logistical summary and much else:http://www.unisa.ac.za/contents/faculti ... ESPONT.pdf
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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#9

Post by Inselaffe » 12 Dec 2010, 03:02

Tim and Hanny make good points above - Yes, hoplite tactics and equipment were radically different to those used by the Persians (Hellenic mercenaries and Client State troops notwithstanding). But the Persians were hardly unaware of these and had been military highly succsessful for centuries.

It's been suggested (and I think rightly) that the key difference lies in the Greek attitude to warfare in general and winning in particular. Keegan's 'A History of Warfare' (London, 1993) discusses this in some depth using a cultural/anthropological approach emphasising the importance of agriculture and of religion and myth. The short campaigning window in Greece combined with the need to end wars decisively for the farmer-citizen-hoplites. He also notes the massive popularity of competitive wrestling, boxing and athletics in Greek society and how this may also have informed atitudes to winning.

The Persians were of course just as keen on winning, they didn't get an empire by being unmotivated :lol: but they seem to have preferred a 'longer game' with more nuanced strategy. The Greek all out 'sh*t or bust' approach appears to have wrong footed them at every turn.
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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#10

Post by Kristian S. » 29 Dec 2010, 10:06

The Persians were able to subjugate the greek cities in asia minor. So one can assume they were able to cope even with hoplite armies. But as a continental power the Persians were not able to conquer territorries overseas. Their fleet failed to secure the vital sea routes and to provide enough transport space for ground troops and supplies. So the anwer is imo that they simply lacked the sea power necessary to maintain an army large enough to defeat the Greek city states.

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Re: Why did the Greeks win the Persian Wars?

#11

Post by The_Enigma » 29 Dec 2010, 14:58

Intresting points; iirc the Persians were able to defeat the Ionian revolt and the intervention of the Grek City States prior to the invasions of Greece (believe they actually motivated the Persians to invade iirc)

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