12 cm Granatwerfer 42

[Manuferey]

We often think of the Russians as the "inventors" of the modern 120 mm mortar. Well, they actually copied it from the French pre-WW2 "mortier Brandt de 120 mm TR", through commercial agreements via a Finnish company. Brandt is the same company that created a famous 81 mm mortar.

This means that the Germans had to encounter 120 mm mortars in the USSR before realizing the potential of such a weapon. Since they had access to French 120 mm in 1940, did they copy only the Russian design entirely and did they look at the French design as well?

Here is a post (in French) about this 120 mm mortar on a French 1939-1940 forum:
http://atf40.forumculture.net/t5579-mor ... e-120mm-tr

Emmanuel

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

About the last image posted by Jopearya in this thread I think it is a captured Russian PM-38 mortar.

Here another image from Ebay. I think 120mm PM-38 Russian mortar but I am not 100% sure.

Sturm78

[ain92]

Hello all.

We often think of the Russians as the "inventors" of the modern 120 mm mortar. Well, they actually copied it from the French pre-WW2 "mortier Brandt de 120 mm TR", through commercial agreements via a Finnish company. Brandt is the same company that created a famous 81 mm mortar.

Emmanuel

It seems to be false because they have a lot of significant differences. You can compare photos at http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=30748 and http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/photoShop.htm#Finland.

Do you see anything in common?

[karlik]

Hello all.

We often think of the Russians as the "inventors" of the modern 120 mm mortar. Well, they actually copied it from the French pre-WW2 "mortier Brandt de 120 mm TR", through commercial agreements via a Finnish company. Brandt is the same company that created a famous 81 mm mortar.

Emmanuel

It seems to be false because they have a lot of significant differences. You can compare photos at http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=30748 and http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/photoShop.htm#Finland.

Do you see anything in common?

Hi!
Is not mortier Brandt de 120 mm TR, it is 120-mm mortier Brandt mle 1935


Brandt de 120 mm TR

[Manuferey]

Here is what I found also on a French forum (http://atf40.forumculture.net/t5579-mor ... e-120mm-tr ):

From what I understand the 120 mm TR and the 120 mm Mle 1935 are the same designation.

There were two variants of the 120 mm Brandt Mle 1935 mortar:
- one version for the infantry produced by Tampella in Finland under a commercial agreement with Brandt.
- one heavier version designed for the artillery.

The agreement between Brandt and Tampella was signed in 1934. Tampela introduced several modifications to the original Brandt Mle 1935 design that ended up as the Finnish 120 Krh/40. These modifications included a lighter weight, an improved base and a modified transport system. I’m not sure which version was used by the Soviets but the Russian Mle 1938 was an authorized copy, but not licensed, of the mortar built by Tampella.

It was authorized under the following background:
French-Soviet discussions led to a non-agression pact signed in November 1932. A French military attaché was then sent to Moscow in March 1933. And discussions started in 1934 about a mutual assistance pact between France and the USSR.

Emmanuel

[JTV]

There were two variants of the 120 mm Brandt Mle 1935 mortar:
- one version for the infantry produced by Tampella in Finland under a commercial agreement with Brandt.
- one heavier version designed for the artillery.

The agreement between Brandt and Tampella was signed in 1934. Tampela introduced several modifications to the original Brandt Mle 1935 design that ended up as the Finnish 120 Krh/40. These modifications included a lighter weight, an improved base and a modified transport system. I’m not sure which version was used by the Soviets but the Russian Mle 1938 was an authorized copy, but not licensed, of the mortar built by Tampella.

Actually no. Tampella built its own 120 mm prototype inspired & based to Brandt design in year 1935 and continued developing the design until 1938 or so, until it finally went to mass-production as 120 Krh/40 starting year 1940. But the Brandt-pattern mortars that it manufactured for Brandt were 60-mm and 81-mm, not 120-mm. Also the Soviet 120-mm M/38 was not a direct copy of Tampella mortar design.

More info: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MORTARS0.htm

Jarkko

[Manuferey]

Thank you, Jarkko, for clarifying things.

Emmanuel

[JTV]

The earliest known design drawing of 120-mm Tampella mortar:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/120mm_Tamp ... awings.jpg

According its markings the drawing was made 15th of November 1934. Lower right corner contains following markings, which seem to be intended specifications:
- Mortar barrel:
-- Weight: about 106 kg
-- Structural strength: 1300 at
- Base plate:
-- Weight: about 95.5 kg
--Structural strength: 100,000 kg
- Bipod:
-- Weigth: about 68 kg
- Total weight without transportation wheels about 269 kg.

This was provided to me by Vesa Toivonen, author of "From Tampella to Patria, 70 Years of Finnish Heavy Weapons Production". Original drawing is nowadays in Central Archives of Finnish Business Records and presumably public domain:
http://www.elka.fi/kotisivu/index.php

edit: typo
Jarkko

[YC Chen]

Hello,

I'm very interested in 12cm mortars and have found this thread extremely helpful!
Maybe not many people here know that the two major participants of WW2 from East Asia both had their own 12cm mortar designs. For Chinese 12cm mortar Type 331 see here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=30

The Japanese 12cm mortars were named Type 2, developed in 1942. It was intended to be carried or towed by horses. The design of a much heavier motorized verison(barrel weight 155kg) with an impressive 6km range was completed in 1943,but was listed by Osaka arsenal as "not urgently needed weapon" thus didn't enter mass production.

Photos here are of Japanese Type 2 12cm mortars taken from a Japanese book.

[jopaerya]

Hello All

This is from a "Gleiderung" of the 78 Sturm-Division any idea how the 12 cm Mortar were placed on or behind trucks ??

Regards Jos

[Draoich]

Hi All,
In relation to Sturm's last photo, this is definitely the Russian PM-38 120mm mortar. This identification is based on the Sights' attachment mortice being the Soviet standard type, which is set at right angles to the barrel. The German standard Sight's attachment mortice is set parallel to the barrel.

In relation to the discussion on the degree of similarity between the WW2 period' French 120mm mortar and the Russian PM-38 120mm mortar, please note that Brandt had developed three different models of 120mm mortar for the French Army. These included a very heavy towed artillery model, a medium towed (and dismountable) model and a light-weight model. It is strange that the German Army does not seem to have used any of these after the fall of France.

Regards,
Draoich

[ain92]

In relation to the discussion on the degree of similarity between the WW2 period' French 120mm mortar and the Russian PM-38 120mm mortar, please note that Brandt had developed three different models of 120mm mortar for the French Army. These included a very heavy towed artillery model, a medium towed (and dismountable) model and a light-weight model. It is strange that the German Army does not seem to have used any of these after the fall of France.

Regards,
Draoich

Hello.
What's the source about three 120 mm Brandt mortars?
Thank you beforehands.

[Draoich]

Hi ain92,
I have 2 sources for the information about the Brandt 120mm pre-war mortars. The first is 'Mortars', by Ian V. Hogg, Crowood Press, 2001, ISBN 1-86126-4194; and the second is 'France 1940 l'armement terrestre', by Stéphane Ferrard, ETAI, 1998, ISBN 2-7268-8380-X.

Regards,
Draoich

[Draoich]

Hi All,
I think the attached photo shows the Brandt Mle 35 120mm light mortar but I am not certain. It is dificult to find any photos of these pre-war Brandt 120mm mortars, never mind period photos, so this photo is of a mortar in an Isreali museum via http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... _artillery. Unfortunately, since I cannot read Israeli script, I do not know what the Information board states. Perhaps some one can translate it?

BRANDT MLE 35 120mm LIGHT FIELD MORTAR - BATEY HAOSEF - PHOTO 1.jpg (91.07 KiB) Viewed 4883 times

Regards,
Draoich

[ain92]

Hello again.
I discussed mortars in the Batey ha-Osef Museum with Bukvoed, author of the photos. Several mortars seems to be described incorrectly, so I don't trust the labels. And the translation is written at the file page.