Was Germany fighting a right or wrong war?
Was Germany fighting a right or wrong war?
In your opinion was Hitler right to have invaded Poland? In a speech about the invasion he claimed that the poles were treating the Germans unbearably. Do you think it was necessary for Germany to risk a world war over it? Moreover should Britain and France have declared war on Hitler? By the way it was they who technically took the war from a local confict to a world war. Comments and opinions are much appreciated.
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Zapfenstreich
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Right or Wrong?
The only justification I can possibly imagine for Hitler going to war would be to regain the territories that were so unjustly stripped from Germany by the Diktat of Versailles. IMHO, having accomplished that, he should have stopped any agressive acts.
There is absolutely no justification for the Holocaust or any other "ethnic cleansing" programs".
I do have to add that Germany is not the only nation guilty of "ethnic cleansing". In the Balkans this is considered sport, unless your side is on the receiving end, of course.
Z
There is absolutely no justification for the Holocaust or any other "ethnic cleansing" programs".
I do have to add that Germany is not the only nation guilty of "ethnic cleansing". In the Balkans this is considered sport, unless your side is on the receiving end, of course.
Z
response to polynike
Britain and France did make it a world war because Canada, New Zealand and Austria all declared war around the same time. They did so out of loyalty to Britain. Also of note Italy offered mediation of the conflict France and Germany accepted but Britain refused.
You must have watched too much NATO propaganda from 1999 onwards.Zapfenstreich wrote:The only justification I can possibly imagine for Hitler going to war would be to regain the territories that were so unjustly stripped from Germany by the Diktat of Versailles. IMHO, having accomplished that, he should have stopped any agressive acts.
There is absolutely no justification for the Holocaust or any other "ethnic cleansing" programs".
I do have to add that Germany is not the only nation guilty of "ethnic cleansing". In the Balkans this is considered sport, unless your side is on the receiving end, of course.
~Ovidius[/quote]
Re: Was Germany fighting a right or wrong war?
If you consider taking apart a foreign nation, killing off its leadership as well as certain segments of the population and enslaving the remainder a rightful goal, invading Poland was the right thing to do.valadezaj wrote:In your opinion was Hitler right to have invaded Poland?
Did he? Propaganda, most likely. Unbearable treatment and atrocities on a fairly large scale only started after the commencement of the German invasion. Hitler, however, had made up his mind about what he wanted to do with Poland before that:In a speech about the invasion he claimed that the poles were treating the Germans unbearably.
Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dressen, "Gott mit uns”: Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten there is yet another summary of Hitler's statements at the afternoon meeting on the Obersalzberg on 22.8.1939. The document referred to is Nuernberg Document 1014-PS, IMT, Volume XXVI.Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Ziel ist die Beseitigung der lebendigen Kräfte, nicht die Erreichung einer bestimmten Linie. Auch wenn im Westen Krieg ausbricht, bleibt Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Mit Rücksicht auf Jahreszeit schnelle Entscheidung.
Ich werde propagandistischen Anlass zur Auslösung des Krieges geben, gleichgültig, ob glaubhaft. Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht. Bei Beginn und Führung des Krieges kommt es nicht auf das Recht an, sondern auf den Sieg.
Herz verschliessen gegen Mitleid. Brutales Vorgehen. 80 Millionen Menschen müssen ihr Recht bekommen. Ihre Existenz muss gesichert werden. Grösste Härte. Schnelligkeit der Entscheidung notwendig. Festen Glauben an den deutschen Soldaten. Krisen nur auf Versagen der Nerven der Führer zurückzuführen.
Erste Forderung: Vordringen bis zur Weichsel und bis zum Narew. Unsere technische Überlegenheit wird die Nerven der Polen zerbrechen. Jede sich neu bildende lebendige polnische Kraft ist sofort zu vernichten. Fortgesetzte Zermürbung. Neue deutsche Grenzführung nach gesunden Gesichtspunkten, evtl. Protektorat als Vorgelände. Militärische Operationen nehmen auf diese Überlegungen keine Rücksicht. Restlose Zertrümmerung Polens ist das militärische Ziel. Schnelligkeit ist die Hauptsache. Verfolgung bis zur völligen Vernichtung.
Überzeugung, dass die deutsche Wehrmacht den Anforderungen gewachsen ist. Auslösung wird nocht befohlen ...
My translation:
The annihilation of Poland is the priority. The goal is the removal of living forces, not the reaching of a certain line. Even if war should break out in the West, the annihilation of Poland remains the priority. Considering the time of the year, a quick decision is required.
I shall provide for a propagandistic reason to unleash the war, regardless of whether it is credible or not. The victor is not asked at a later stage whether he told the truth or not. In beginning and conducting a war, what matters is not right but victory.
Close heart to pity. Brutal proceeding. 80 million people must get their right, Their existence must be assured. Greatest harshness. Quick decision is necessary. Firm faith in the German soldier. Crises must only be attributed to commanders having lost their nerves.
First requirement: Advance to the Vistula and the Narev. Our technical superiority will break the nerves of the Poles. Every new Polish force forming must be immediately annihilated. Continuous attrition. New German frontier according to healthy criteria, eventually a protectorate as a buffer area. Military operations must not take these thoughts into consideration. The utter shattering of Poland is the military goal. Pursuit until complete annihilation.
Conviction that the German Wehrmacht is up to the task. Unleashing will yet be ordered ...
They don't seem to have wanted a world war. What they wanted was a colonial war on an enormous scale, first against Poland and then against the Soviet Union. They expected Britain and France to stand still as they had in regard to Czechoslovakia, but due to the assurances these countries had given to Poland, this turned out to be a grievous miscalculation.Do you think it was necessary for Germany to risk a world war over it?
The alternative to honoring their commitment towards Poland would have been losing what little credibility they had left after having sold out Czechoslovakia. It would have been good if they had done a little more than just declare war and then sit still while Poland was being taken apart. An attack on the greatly outnumbered German forces in the West in September 1939 might have given history a different turn.Moreover should Britain and France have declared war on Hitler?
I wouldn't call the Sitzkrieg, the invasion of Norway and the 1940 debacle in the West a world war. It was a comparatively limited European war which only became a major bloodbath (the greatest in history, as a matter of fact) when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union in 1941 and a world war when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Germany declared war on the United States.By the way it was they who technically took the war from a local confict to a world war.
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Zapfenstreich
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- Posts: 630
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 20:58
- Location: The Old Northwest Territory
HORSE HOCKEY!
You must have watched too much NATO propaganda from 1999 onwards.
Ovidius
My wife's grandfather was a Sergeant Major in an Austro-Hungarian sapper
regiment during WWI. He and his wife came from Vukovar, Croatia where my wife's father was born. He and I talked at great length over many years about how life was there.
The Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slavs, Turks, Greeks and Armenians have been hacking away at each other for centuries.
Now if you want to deny it, go ahead but don't call me a liar.
Z
Ovidius
My wife's grandfather was a Sergeant Major in an Austro-Hungarian sapper
regiment during WWI. He and his wife came from Vukovar, Croatia where my wife's father was born. He and I talked at great length over many years about how life was there.
The Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slavs, Turks, Greeks and Armenians have been hacking away at each other for centuries.
Now if you want to deny it, go ahead but don't call me a liar.
Z
Britain's responsibility was to attack both the Germans and the Soviet Union.Cheshire Yeomanry wrote:Hitler knew that by invading Poland he was gambling on the western powers (Britain & France) not standing up to there responsibilities in regards to France. He lost the gamble and started WW2 and not technically in anyway Britain or France
From the Shire
As to the other poster speaking of credibility, the Anglo-Polish Treaty of 1939 required Britain to attack both Germany and the USSR. If one judges credibility by historic western principles, the Brits come up bad.
dan
Dan, I think what goes in here is what a government TELLS its citizens and what the big picture or grand strategy is. Russel F Weigley said in a class I had that ever since the unifacation of Germany the true question in Europe was: "What are we going to do about Germany". Germans were told in the '30's that Poland had provoked them and were mistreating ethnic Germans - this was partially true. Truthfully though Hitler really didnt care about volksdeutsche - it was just asop for nationalist Germans.
Britain told its people that they were going to the aid of an innoccent ally, Poland. They didn't tell their people: "Well Germany has upset the balance of power on the continent, again - we have to stop them". Britain and France nearly did come to blows with Stalin during the Winter War - but poor Finland - luckily for the AngloFrench couldn't hold out.
How much their noble ally Poland meant to them is shown by how they (and the Americans too)sold them down the river to Joe Stalins Murderous Minions. Just think, it took 50 years to get them out of there.
Britain told its people that they were going to the aid of an innoccent ally, Poland. They didn't tell their people: "Well Germany has upset the balance of power on the continent, again - we have to stop them". Britain and France nearly did come to blows with Stalin during the Winter War - but poor Finland - luckily for the AngloFrench couldn't hold out.
How much their noble ally Poland meant to them is shown by how they (and the Americans too)sold them down the river to Joe Stalins Murderous Minions. Just think, it took 50 years to get them out of there.
re
Consider, if you will, how very different the history of Hitler's war against Russia (the be all end all reason for WWII) would be viewed if Britian and France had not declared war in Sept '39 and instead remained aloof from the proceedings in Eastern Europe. Would the war against Communist Russia be considered justifiable then? Would there have been even more support than there was for Hitler's war against the "Evil Empire" to quote Ronnie Reagan.
Before the end of 39 it was Communist Russia who was viewed as the bigger threat by most people, not nazi Germany. Even after war was declared on Poland there were many people in many countries, including the crusading Britain that felt that Hitler's attack on Poland was actually justifiable. Even Chamberlain said that "...Mr Hitler had legitimate grievance's regarding Poland's attitude towards the Danzig situation." And madJim is quite correct in saying that Poland had nothing to do with England going to war with Germany. In fact, Chamberlain absolutely did NOT want war with anyone at all, right up to the debacle in Norway. All Chamberlain really wanted was for Germany to pull out of Poland and go back to the talking table. But if Hitler had done this, the true prize of Russia would be beyond his grasp. Hitler hoped that once war with Russia was launched, then the other nations fighting against Germany would suddenly understand the "great plan" he had in mind and come over to his way of thinking. An indication that Hitler never really understood Russia's allie's motives for war.
In the end though, Hitler's war was no more justifiable than any other countries war for Empire building. And certainly no more justifiable than the US's actions in the world during the 20th and 21st Centuries.
Tony
Before the end of 39 it was Communist Russia who was viewed as the bigger threat by most people, not nazi Germany. Even after war was declared on Poland there were many people in many countries, including the crusading Britain that felt that Hitler's attack on Poland was actually justifiable. Even Chamberlain said that "...Mr Hitler had legitimate grievance's regarding Poland's attitude towards the Danzig situation." And madJim is quite correct in saying that Poland had nothing to do with England going to war with Germany. In fact, Chamberlain absolutely did NOT want war with anyone at all, right up to the debacle in Norway. All Chamberlain really wanted was for Germany to pull out of Poland and go back to the talking table. But if Hitler had done this, the true prize of Russia would be beyond his grasp. Hitler hoped that once war with Russia was launched, then the other nations fighting against Germany would suddenly understand the "great plan" he had in mind and come over to his way of thinking. An indication that Hitler never really understood Russia's allie's motives for war.
In the end though, Hitler's war was no more justifiable than any other countries war for Empire building. And certainly no more justifiable than the US's actions in the world during the 20th and 21st Centuries.
Tony
Re: dan
I guess we were sold down the river by our gracious allies in the west. However, there is another way to look at it. For instance, Stalin could've sent half of us to Siberia and made Poland a Soviet republic. Much like Estonia or Latvia. But no, he gave us some land in the west (at the expense of Germnay of course) and Poland eventually became one of the more liberal Socialist states. Maybe the allies had something to do with all of that? Or maybe uncle Joe was just feeling generous. Who knows? True though, it would've been better if Poland was under the western umbrella and took part in the Marschall plan. Oh well...MadJim wrote:How much their noble ally Poland meant to them is shown by how they (and the Americans too)sold them down the river to Joe Stalins Murderous Minions. Just think, it took 50 years to get them out of there.
Here is a letter I from Hitler to Mussolini that I found on the internet. The letter provides Hitler's own justification for the polish war. Tell me what you think. By the way just all you need to read is the last paragraph.
The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School
Letter from Hitler to Mussolini, August 25, 1939
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DUCE: For some time Germany and Russia have been engaged in an exchange of views about a new attitude on both sides in regard to their political relations.
The necessity of arriving at some conclusions of this sort was increased by:
(1) The general situation of world politics as it affected both of the Axis Powers.
(2) The necessity of securing a clear statement of position from the Japanese Cabinet. Japan would probably agree to an alliance against Russia, which would have only a secondary interest, under the prevailing circumstances, for Germany, and in my opinion, for Italy also. She would not, however, undertake such definite obligations against England, and this, from the standpoint not only of Germany, but also of Italy, was of decisive importance. The intention of the military to force the Japanese Government in a short time to take a similarly clear position with respect to England had been stated months ago, but had never been realized in practice.
(3) The relation of Germany to Poland, not through the blame of the Reich, but as a result of the activity of England, has become considerably more unsatisfactory since spring and in the last few weeks the position has become simply unbearable. The reports about the persecution of the Germans in the border areas are not invented press reports but represent only a fraction of the terrible truth. The customs policy of Poland, resulting in the throttling of Danzig, has brought about a complete standstill in Danzig's entire economic life for the past several weeks and would if it were continued for only a brief length of time, destroy the city.
These grounds led me to hasten the conclusion of the German-Russian conversations. I have not kept you informed in detail, Duce, since I did not have an idea of the possible extent of these conversations, or any assurance of the possibility of their success.
The readiness on the part of the Kremlin to arrive at a reorientation of its relations with Germany, which became apparent after the departure of Litvinov, has become ever stronger in the last few weeks and has made it possible for me, after successful preparation, to send my Foreign Minister to Moscow for the conclusion of a treaty which is the most extensive non-aggression pact in existence and whose text will be made public. The pact is unconditional and includes also the obligation for consultation about all questions affecting Russia and Germany. I may tell you, Duce, that through these arrangements the favorable attitude of Russia in case of any conflict is assured, and that the possibility of the entry of Rumania into such a conflict no longer exists!
Even Turkey under these circumstances can only envisage a revision of her previous position. But I repeat once more, that Rumania is no longer in a situation to take part in a conflict against the Axis! I believe I may say to you, Duce, that through the negotiations with Soviet Russia a completely new situation in world politics has been produced which must be regarded as the greatest possible gain for the Axis.
About the situation on the German-Polish frontier, I can only inform Your Excellency that we have been for weeks in a state of alarm, that as a result of the Polish mobilization German preparations have naturally also been increased, and that in case of an intolerable Polish action, I will act immediately. The assertion of the Polish Government that it is not responsible for these inhuman proceedings, for the numerous border incidents (last night alone there were twenty-one Polish border violations), and for the firing on the German airplanes, which had already received orders to travel to East Prussia over the sea in order to avoid incidents, shows only that the Polish Government has its excitable soldiery [Soldateska] no longer under control. Since yesterday Danzig has been blockaded by Polish troops, a situation which is unendurable. Under these circumstances no one can say what the next hour may bring. I can only assure you there is a limit beyond which I will not be pushed under any circumstances.
In conclusion I can assure you, Duce, that in a similar situation I would have complete understanding for Italy and that in any such case you can be sure of my attitude.
ADOLF HITLER
Previous Document Nazi-Soviet Relations Page Next Document
© 1996 - 2001 The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School.
The Lillian Goldman Law Library in Memory of Sol Goldman
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941 was last modified on: 04/24/2002 13:51:00
The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School
Letter from Hitler to Mussolini, August 25, 1939
Previous Document Nazi-Soviet Relations Page Next Document
DUCE: For some time Germany and Russia have been engaged in an exchange of views about a new attitude on both sides in regard to their political relations.
The necessity of arriving at some conclusions of this sort was increased by:
(1) The general situation of world politics as it affected both of the Axis Powers.
(2) The necessity of securing a clear statement of position from the Japanese Cabinet. Japan would probably agree to an alliance against Russia, which would have only a secondary interest, under the prevailing circumstances, for Germany, and in my opinion, for Italy also. She would not, however, undertake such definite obligations against England, and this, from the standpoint not only of Germany, but also of Italy, was of decisive importance. The intention of the military to force the Japanese Government in a short time to take a similarly clear position with respect to England had been stated months ago, but had never been realized in practice.
(3) The relation of Germany to Poland, not through the blame of the Reich, but as a result of the activity of England, has become considerably more unsatisfactory since spring and in the last few weeks the position has become simply unbearable. The reports about the persecution of the Germans in the border areas are not invented press reports but represent only a fraction of the terrible truth. The customs policy of Poland, resulting in the throttling of Danzig, has brought about a complete standstill in Danzig's entire economic life for the past several weeks and would if it were continued for only a brief length of time, destroy the city.
These grounds led me to hasten the conclusion of the German-Russian conversations. I have not kept you informed in detail, Duce, since I did not have an idea of the possible extent of these conversations, or any assurance of the possibility of their success.
The readiness on the part of the Kremlin to arrive at a reorientation of its relations with Germany, which became apparent after the departure of Litvinov, has become ever stronger in the last few weeks and has made it possible for me, after successful preparation, to send my Foreign Minister to Moscow for the conclusion of a treaty which is the most extensive non-aggression pact in existence and whose text will be made public. The pact is unconditional and includes also the obligation for consultation about all questions affecting Russia and Germany. I may tell you, Duce, that through these arrangements the favorable attitude of Russia in case of any conflict is assured, and that the possibility of the entry of Rumania into such a conflict no longer exists!
Even Turkey under these circumstances can only envisage a revision of her previous position. But I repeat once more, that Rumania is no longer in a situation to take part in a conflict against the Axis! I believe I may say to you, Duce, that through the negotiations with Soviet Russia a completely new situation in world politics has been produced which must be regarded as the greatest possible gain for the Axis.
About the situation on the German-Polish frontier, I can only inform Your Excellency that we have been for weeks in a state of alarm, that as a result of the Polish mobilization German preparations have naturally also been increased, and that in case of an intolerable Polish action, I will act immediately. The assertion of the Polish Government that it is not responsible for these inhuman proceedings, for the numerous border incidents (last night alone there were twenty-one Polish border violations), and for the firing on the German airplanes, which had already received orders to travel to East Prussia over the sea in order to avoid incidents, shows only that the Polish Government has its excitable soldiery [Soldateska] no longer under control. Since yesterday Danzig has been blockaded by Polish troops, a situation which is unendurable. Under these circumstances no one can say what the next hour may bring. I can only assure you there is a limit beyond which I will not be pushed under any circumstances.
In conclusion I can assure you, Duce, that in a similar situation I would have complete understanding for Italy and that in any such case you can be sure of my attitude.
ADOLF HITLER
Previous Document Nazi-Soviet Relations Page Next Document
© 1996 - 2001 The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School.
The Lillian Goldman Law Library in Memory of Sol Goldman
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941 was last modified on: 04/24/2002 13:51:00