SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

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Inter-War
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SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#1

Post by Inter-War » 06 Oct 2011, 11:47

Hello Gents,

I'm slowly building a collection of models that document the mechanisation of the British Army during the inter-war period, and am looking for more information on an anti-tank gun towed by the Mark VI Carden Loyd carriers during this experimental phase.

The weapon is a 20mm/0.8inch/1-pounder Oerlikon cannon, derived from the earlier SEMAG cannon which in turn began life as the Becker aero-cannon, developed towards the close of WWI. The British Army trialled it as an anti-tank weapon, with the gun and a crew trailer towed by the little Carden Loyd carrier. The result looked fairly comical, and I wouldn't have wanted to be in the crew trailer when it hit rough ground, but now I've seen it, I want to model it!

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-w ... 0&FG=0&QS=

I've visited the archives at both the Imperial War Museum and the Bovington Tank Museum (FirePower in Woolwich didn't have anything nor the Royal Armouries). All the images they hold cover what I assume to be the prototype - Very low slung, on a tubular frame, with perforated disc wheels. From images I've seen of the original SEMAG, it looks like Vickers just took the two wheeled infantry carriage supplied with the gun, and grafted their own tracks onto it - Bit of a garage conversion.

All would be well, as there's enough info in these archive photos to construct a reasonably accurate 1/32nd scale model.
However, I've now become aware of a later version, with a different carriage that would be more attractive to model - But of which I have seen only three vague pictures, and one of those was a cigarette card!

Forum member Juhan Tompori posted an image of the exact version I would like to model back on 5th July 2007 as part of the 'The official AHF Equipment of Allies & Neutrals quiz' - Half way down the page.
The gun stands very high above a set of Carden Loyd tracks with the later cast spoked wheels, rather than perforated disc wheels of the earlier version. Leather panniers for the chunky box magazines are slung on either side. (Sorry, I've only just joined and haven't worked out how to add images I'm afraid - Hope the link below works:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... start=2475

So, if Juhan, or anyone else for that matter, knows of any more images of this weapon (and it would be interesting to know the source of the one you did post Juhan), then I would be more than delighted to hear from you. The other photo I've seen of the gun in action was posted on another forum, also by someone living on the eastern side of Europe. (Scroll to last photo):

http://borianm.livejournal.com/tag/%D0% ... 0%B8%D1%8F

I'm wondering if information on this gun is more readily available 'East of Germany' than in the UK.
Anyway, would be glad of any assistance that can be offered.

I'll post some pics of my research so far when I work out how!

Regards, Inter-War

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#2

Post by Orwell1984 » 06 Oct 2011, 17:20



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Juha Tompuri
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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#3

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Oct 2011, 21:35

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#4

Post by Inter-War » 07 Oct 2011, 12:03

Many thanks Juha and Orwell!
That photo from the Military Images site is a new one to me and offers some extra details - I hadn't spotted the shoulder rest before, but now I squint I can just discern it in the previous images. The tow bar was also missing/out of view in the offers, so I inch ever closer to obtaining the info I need!

Interestingly, Juha, it was this very picture of the rusted Carden Loyd trailer that prompted me to renew my search this week - I haven't been working on this theme for a few months after running out of leads.
There is a chap in Norfolk who has a replica Carden Loyd Mark VI, made by restorer Bob Grundy, direct from the original in the Bovington Tank Museum which he restored in the 1980s. He also has a second hull and all the drawings to make them as kits - Takes a Model-T Ford engine. I'm suspecting it was he who bought the remains of this trailer (sold earlier this year) to add to his 'product line'. Here's hoping he'll reply to my emails as those drawings should be second to none.
The hunt goes on....

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#5

Post by peeved » 07 Oct 2011, 15:45

The 1935 book "Fremde Heere im Bild" has the following better rez versions of two known photos.

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#6

Post by Inter-War » 07 Oct 2011, 16:32

peeved wrote:The 1935 book "Fremde Heere im Bild" has the following better rez versions of two known photos.

Markus

Hello Peeved,
This forum is definitely coming up with the goods! Many thanks for those high-resolution images, which make the details much clearer.
That book you mentioned ('Foreign Armies in Pictures', 1935) seems to be a bit of collectors' item - Do you own a copy yourself? I assume there are no further images of the cannon within that volume?
The German Army would certainly be familiar with the work of Messers Carden and Loyd. I think I'm right in saying that the Panzer Marks I and II were developed off the back of Carden Loyd light tank, exported to Sweden(?) for covert German training and development before Hitler stopped paying lip service to the Treaty of Versailles ban on his having tanks.

http://www.usmbooks.com/fremde_heere.html

I don't know where abouts you are in Finland, but I understand that there's an anti-aircraft museum in Tuusual, which has one version of the early SEMGA/Oerlikon cannon mounted on a pedestal on display. You can see it on this forum, 11th and 13th images down - The big square box magazine and twin handgrip trigger (like on a Maxim) are quite distinctive.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... aft-museum

Now, if someone fancies visting the museum with a tape measure..... :D

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#7

Post by peeved » 07 Oct 2011, 17:37

Inter-War wrote:That book you mentioned ('Foreign Armies in Pictures', 1935) seems to be a bit of collectors' item - Do you own a copy yourself? I assume there are no further images of the cannon within that volume?
I do own a copy of the book but couldn't find any "new" 0.8 in MG photos in it.
Markus

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#8

Post by peeved » 09 Oct 2011, 09:33

From Heigl's Taschenbuch der Tanks, Teil I (1970 reprint of 1935 edition).

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#9

Post by Inter-War » 12 Oct 2011, 10:51

peeved wrote:From Heigl's Taschenbuch der Tanks, Teil I (1970 reprint of 1935 edition).

Markus
I'm becoming a big fan of your book collection Markus! :D
Just had an email back from the Bovington Tank Museum to say they don't hold any photos/information on this later version of the gun - Seems slightly ironic that it should be a couple of German publications that have recorded this little footnote in British Army history better than the 'home crowd'. I think I could just about create a model from what's been assembled thus far, though a clear view of the rear of the carriage would help. I can't seem to see the pole trail sticking out between the legs of the men firing the guns - Perhaps it was detached prior to firing?
Out of interest, are any of the images credited to a source? I have a very useful children's book called 'The Wonder Book of Soldiers' dating to around the 1930s, which has a section on mechanisation, filled with Vickers Mediums, Morris Martel tankettes and the 6-wheeled Morris lorries etc. Most of the photos are credited to press agencies, such as Topical, Photopress and Sport & General. I'm wondering if the images in your German books came from overseas correspondants, or from Britain.

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#10

Post by peeved » 12 Oct 2011, 11:15

Not much help there I'm afraid: The Fremde Heere im Bild pics are bulk credited to Associated Press, Berlin / Atlantic, Berlin / Keystone View Comp., Berlin / P. & A. Photos, Berlin / Scherls Bilderdienst, Berlin and Wide World Photos, Berlin and the Heigl shot to the collections of Fritz Heigl and J. F. Lehmanns Verlag, München.

Markus

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Re: SEMAG / Oerlikon Cannons in British Service

#11

Post by Inter-War » 13 Oct 2011, 13:38

Hello Markus,

Looks like I've set myself a slow-burner of a research project here! Did a little digging yesterday and at least one of the old press archives from my 'Wonder Book' has been absorbed into Getty images, but I suspect the bulk of it is still in print and negative form, and a long, long way from being digitised. If it ever would be, being of limited interest to the general public. I'd have to apply to sift through their archives with white gloves and a dust mask.
Goodness knows where I'd find the archives of the agencies you named - I suspect many Berlin photo archives didn't make it through the war intact.

The Tank Museum has no further info, so it looks like I'm going to have to rely on serendipity from here on in.
Chance encounters such as this set of Mitchell's Prize Crop cigarette cards that some kind soul in a Danish military society has scanned in. They show both the later Oerlikon cannon, and a Carden Loyd carrier plus trailer carrying a Stokes mortar and crew. Top row - furthest two on the right, and middle row, furthest on the left

http://www.chakoten.dk/cgi-bin/makegall ... ehrmacht36

They have a nice page on the Carden Loyds in general, but I'm afraid I don't speak Danish!

http://www.chakoten.dk/cgi-bin/fm.cgi?n=365

Thanks for all your help - Will add further bits to this thread when/if I strike it lucky! :D

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