Early NKVD atrocities

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Benoit Douville
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Early NKVD atrocities

#1

Post by Benoit Douville » 20 Mar 2003, 03:47

When the Einsatzgruppen arrived in Lvov in Ukraine on july 1 1941. They discovered that the NKVD had killed three thousands UPA insurgents, They discovered the prisons full of of bodies murdered and mutilated.

Sources:"Master of Death" by Richard Rhodes

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Brannik
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#2

Post by Brannik » 22 Mar 2003, 23:44

Well,that is actually a recurrent theme in "The EinsatzGruppen Reports".I started a tread on it ,trying to assess how credible would these references be,but I never got anything satisfactory.

Regards


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Oleg Grigoryev
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#3

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Mar 2003, 06:57


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Robert Rojas
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RE: Early N.K.V.D. atrocities

#4

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Mar 2003, 07:57

Greetings to both cousin Benoit Douville and the community as a whole. In reference to your posting of Thursday - March 20, 2003 - 2:47am, you might want to peruse a thread entitled as KNOW OF ANY BOOK ABOUT N.K.V.D. WAR CRIMES (EXCEPT KATYN)? which also happens to be located within the HOLOCAUST & WARCRIMES section of the forum. The author goes by the nom de plume of Iltis and the thread's creation date is Friday - December 20, 2002 - 7:32pm. In addition, I would like to recommend a work of literature which makes graphic reference to the slaughter in Lvov. The work is entitled as THE BLACK MARCH and the author is Peter Neumann. The publisher is Bantam Books of New York, New York and the publishing year is 1960. THE BLACK MARCH is ostensibly the war diary of the author Peter Neumann. The author was an infantry officer in the Fifth S.S. Panzer Division (The Wiking Division) and his Eastern Front experiences began with Operation Barbarossa in 1941 and ended with his capture during the Battle of Vienna in 1945. I believe you will find Peter Neumann's anecdotal description of what he and his outfit discovered in Lvov after the Koba's boy scouts withdrew from the city of relevant interest to your historical needs. It's just some food for thought. In anycase, I would like to bid you a wonderful day up in the GREAT WHITE NORTH.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :)

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Scott Smith
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#5

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Mar 2003, 08:13

I believe The Black March is a novel, although a good one, but I am willing to be corrected on that point by Citizen Rojas, or whomever might know the answer.
:)

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Early N.K.V.D. atrocities

#6

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Mar 2003, 08:36

Greetings to both brother Scott Smith and the community as a whole. In respect to your inquiry of Sunday - March 23, 2003 - 7:13am, I have a strong reason to believe you are confusing the author PETER NEUMANN with the author SVEN HASSEL. The novels produced by Sven Hassel were colorful works of fiction written on the backdrops of the Eastern Front, Italy and Germany itself. As much as Sven Hassel's novels are panned, they do seem to sell! Undoubtedly, the gentleman laughs loudest when he makes his bank deposits. I hope this little blurb has addressed your inquiry. In anycase, I would like to bid you a wonderful day down in the Grand Canyon State.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :)

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Scott Smith
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The Black March

#7

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Mar 2003, 10:33

Uncle Bob, I believe that Peter Neumann is the penname for Claude Darville (born 1925), or vice-versa. The book The Black March first appeared in (London) 1958 as Other Men's Graves, translated from French by Constantine Fitz Gibbon, and the original title published in France was simply SS. It appeared under the title The Black March in (New York) 1959. The Library of Congress cross-references Peter Neumann to Claude Darville and both books. The OCLC catalog lists it as a personal narrative, but I am skeptical of that.
:)

In any case, this book is available from Amazon to support this site ONLY by clicking my link below:

CLICK! Image

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Roberto
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#8

Post by Roberto » 25 Mar 2003, 18:05

Scott Smith wrote:The OCLC catalog lists it as a personal narrative, but I am skeptical of that.
The reason for such "skepticism" being the note on the cover that reads "The whole brutal truth * Hitler’s school for atrocity", right ?

I was wondering why Smith was so keen to describe a source on what "Koba’s boy scouts" did in Lvov as "a novel". After having seen the book’s cover, I’m no longer surprised.

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#9

Post by David Thompson » 25 Mar 2003, 23:09

Here's the account of the Lviv prison massacre mentioned by Robert Rojas, from Neumann, Peter, "The Black March: The Personal Story of an SS Man" (formerly "SS!"), Bantam Books, New York: 1971, pp. 113-14:
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Annelie
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#10

Post by Annelie » 26 Mar 2003, 23:04

The original topic "Early NKVD atrocities"

I would like to remind forum members of

"http://home.parks.lv/leonards/BaigaisGads/"

You shall certainly see "early" atrocities, it is an interesting
and informative site.

Annelie

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#11

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2003, 02:36

Re Peter Neumann:

I read the book "Other Men's Graves" before Roberto was born.

"Neumann" is one of those who claims to have been a stud at a Lebensborn establishment. He gives a rather lurid account of what supposedly happened there.

His account of the medical examination at which he proved his fitness to donate his seed for the Fatherland would also be of interest to cum-shot fans.

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Roberto
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#12

Post by Roberto » 27 Mar 2003, 13:52

michael mills wrote:Re Peter Neumann:

I read the book "Other Men's Graves" before Roberto was born.
Which makes Mills older but no wiser, as his puerile remarks in this post (among many others) show.
michael mills wrote:"Neumann" is one of those who claims to have been a stud at a Lebensborn establishment. He gives a rather lurid account of what supposedly happened there.

His account of the medical examination at which he proved his fitness to donate his seed for the Fatherland would also be of interest to cum-shot fans.
About "cum-shot fans" Mills probably knows a lot more than I do, but my experience with his rendering of sources tells me it is usually recommendable to look up the source itself rather than rely on what he tells us about it.

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#13

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2003, 14:09

Yes, let them read the book. Then they will realise that it is full of sensationalist elements that cast doubt on its veracity. For example the episode set in a Lebensborn establishment, which "Neumann" obviously invented in order to appeal to the more salacious fantasies of his readers, to which I alluded.

The bottom line is that "Other Men's Graves" cannot be relied on as atrue story of the experiences of a young SS-man. Some of the episodes in it may be based on reality, but large parts of it are manifestly fictional.

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Steve
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#14

Post by Steve » 29 Mar 2003, 16:05

Other Men`s Graves was sold as an autobiography to quote from the cover "This is the autobiography of a junior SS Officer and although such people are usually incapable of expressing their personalities in any other way than by violence, Neumann can write"..............."This is not a pleasant book, but we believe it is a document of very considerable importance for those who want to understand what has happened and is happening to Europeans"
A good read, is it an autobiography ? probably not, was it written by someone who knew his subject ? probably yes.

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Benoit Douville
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#15

Post by Benoit Douville » 30 Mar 2003, 04:16

Brannik,

The work of Richard Rhodes is not enough evidence fo you? He visited NKVD and SS killing sites in Minsk in Ukraine and also eastwards. He had the help of the historian Eric Markusen who have an impressive genocide research collection.

The operation Barbarossa really surprised the NKVD. Despite the deportations to the Gulag, Jails from the Eastern Front were crowded with politicals prisoners. Rathers than release them, they simply slaughtered them. NKVD prisoners in the first week after Barbarossa totaled some 10 000 in the Western Ukraine and more than 9000 in Vinnitsa, eastward toward Kiev, comparable prisoners were executed in Eastern Poland, Byelorussia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia!

Regards

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