Panzers in Sicily

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keith A
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Panzers in Sicily

#1

Post by keith A » 10 Mar 2012, 22:45

I am reading a great book by Carlo D'Este on the campaign in Sicily which I recommend to anyone interested in this campaign, but I am intrigued by the mention of Tiger tanks in significant numbers being employed. My understanding is that these were in short supply until 1944 but I don't know enough about it. I would also like to know what other armour was used by both Germans and Italians.

regards

Keith

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#2

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 10 Mar 2012, 23:02

Keith, there was a full company of Tigers on Sicily with 17 tanks, other tanks used by the Germans on Sicily were the Pz III (75mm and long 50 gun tanks and short 50mm command tanks), Pz IV, StuG III and StuH 42. The Italians used ex-French Renault R35 tanks along with their own 47mm, 75mm and 90mm self-propeled guns, the Semovente 47/32, 75/18 and 90/53. They also had the Fiat 3000 and L3 tanks on the island but I'm not sure they really count as AFV's :D :D
Alan


keith A
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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#3

Post by keith A » 11 Mar 2012, 19:20

Cheers Alan. Do you knowe how many Tigers were lost, and what unit they belonged to? I am looking for those lost in combat to the US army.

thanks,

Keith

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Ironmachine
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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#4

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Mar 2012, 20:04

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 - sPzAbt. 504
The 504th was the second Tiger unit to be sent to Tunisia. It was issued 25 PzKpfw III plus two Panzerbefehlswagen Tiger Ausf.E in January, and 18 Tigers, comprising the battalion staff, workshop company, and 1st tank company arrived in Tunisia on 12 March 1943. The 2nd company remained in Sicily. The tank company had four platoons, each with two Tiger I tanks and two Pzkpw III support tanks. All of the sPzAbt. 504 Tigers were destroyed or captured. The surviving elements surrendered on 12 May 1943.
On 13 April 1943, the OKH ordered that six Tigers were to be stationed on Sicily and that until transferred to Tunisia, the 2.Kompanie/ schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 was to be attached to PzAbt. 215 with a reinforced platoon of six Tigers being immediately shipped to Sicily. Altogether 17 Tigers gathered on Sicily: the original nine from 2. Kompanie of the 504th, two Tigers that had been used as replacements for the 501st in February, and the six Tigers issued in April 1943 for the 215th.
Attached to Panzer Division Herrmann Göring, the 17 Tigers under the 2. Kompanie of the 504th attacked the American landing zone on 11 July 1943, but were neutralized by naval gunfire. Within the first three days ten out of the 17 Tigers were destroyed to prevent capture and a further six Tigers were destroyed later for the same reason. The last Tiger was shipped back across the straits of Messina to Italy.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#5

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 11 Mar 2012, 22:03

Ironmachine wrote:..... the 17 Tigers under the 2.Kompanie of the 504th attacked the American landing zone on 11 July 1943, but were neutralized by naval gunfire. Within the first three days ten out of the 17 Tigers were destroyed to prevent capture and a further six Tigers were destroyed later for the same reason. The last Tiger was shipped back across the straits of Messina to Italy.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm[/quote]

Some folks make much of the NGF breaking up the HG attack. I wonder how many Tigers were qctually destroyed of damaged by the NGF?

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#6

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 11 Mar 2012, 23:14

Carl, The Tigers didn't even need to be destroyed by the NGF, just damaging them would have been enough because when the company was transferrd from 15 PzGren Div to HG they were not allowed to take their specialised workshops personnel and equipment with them and so were completely unable to recover/repair their own vehicles.
Alan

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#7

Post by JamesL » 12 Mar 2012, 00:12

This US Army after action report, Lessons from the Sicilian Campaign, has some information on armored combat in Sicily. Perhaps you would find in useful.

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 441/rec/79

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#8

Post by Dili » 12 Mar 2012, 04:51

Some folks make much of the NGF breaking up the HG attack. I wonder how many Tigers were qctually destroyed of damaged by the NGF?
A track out of place due to a near miss and a Tiger stops.

keith A
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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#9

Post by keith A » 12 Mar 2012, 10:22

Thanks chaps,

Odd that in the US ARMY AFTER ACTION REPORT (Thanks James) one armoured commander claims his unit destroyed several Tigers, as well as PzkfwIII. I thought that Shermans were pretty ineffectual against Tigers unless they were very, very lucky. I assume these Tigers had been damaged or suffered mechanical failure before being engaged by the Shermans. Unless they mistook PzkfwIV for Tigers?

Does anyone know the numberr of tanks and SP guns claimed by US Army units in Sicily?

cheer-0

Keith

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#10

Post by Kingfish » 12 Mar 2012, 13:45

Dili wrote:
Some folks make much of the NGF breaking up the HG attack. I wonder how many Tigers were qctually destroyed of damaged by the NGF?
A track out of place due to a near miss and a Tiger stops.
NGF may not have accounted for many Tigers, but I bet it worked wonders on its infantry support.

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#11

Post by LWD » 12 Mar 2012, 14:34

Carl Schwamberger wrote: Some folks make much of the NGF breaking up the HG attack. I wonder how many Tigers were qctually destroyed of damaged by the NGF?
My understanding is that there was also a fair amount of fire being supplied by an army artillery unit. I'm not sure how you would seperate the damage from them. It's also not clear to me what the navy was firing. I suspect mostly if not all HC. Certainly 6" AP would be overkill and while the USN did have AP for the 5" round they carried HC for the most part. Looking at http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm I don't even see an AP round for the 5"/38 although I thought I'd read that one existed. That may be the "Special Common" round mentioned and for which penetration data is given along with:
2) It should be noted that US ships during World War II carried only small quantities of Special Common ammunition as the AA Common projectiles were considered to be more useful against a greater variety of targets.
There's some more info on the penetration of the 5" and 6" rounds at: http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Pe ... States.htm

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#12

Post by Ironmachine » 12 Mar 2012, 18:20

Some more details:
The fate of the 17 Tigers on Sicily was reported by Major Gierga, commander of Panzer-Abteilung 215 , in the following report to the Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen dated 25 August 1943:
On orders from the Division , at the start of July I transferred the 17 Tigers from the Abteilung to Panzer-Regiment 'Hermann Göring' .
Before the transfer, I proposed to the commander, Oberstleutnant Urban, as well as the division supply and technical officers, to give them a complete Werkstatt-Zug that was already entrusted with repair of Tigers along with elements of the Bergezug in exchange for one of their Werkstatt-Züge . Successful recovery and repair of the new Tigers would be questionable without this exchange. The proposal was rejected by Panzer-Division 'Herrmann Göring' with the excuse that an exchange was out of question; instead, only transfers from my Abteilung were to occur. I reported this to my division commander. After telephone calls between General Rodt and General von Senger, I was ordered to give up the 10 special mechanics, all of the special tools, all replacement parts, as well as the portal crane along with the 17 Tigers. Because of transport difficulties, Panzer Regiment 'Herrmann Göring' did not pick up all these replacement parts, so that part of them (rubber tires, roadwheels and more) in addition to about 80 tons of 8.8 cm ammunition were left lying behind and fell into enemy hands.
Based on the after-action report from the Tiger-Kompanie and the report from Leutnant Goldschmidt, the last commander of the Tiger-Kompanie , at the beginning of the campaign the Tiger-Kompanie was assigned to Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 'Henrice'. The Panzer-Grenadiere interfered with the employment of the Tiger-Kompanie and the terrain was insufficiently scouted, so that several Tigers became bogged down in the mud. The Tigers became separated from our own infantry, so they were cut off, making repair or recovery impossible.
Ten Tigers had already been lost during the first three days when they were blown up to prevent capture. Of the remaining seven Tigers, three more were lost by 20 July when they caught fire or were blown to prevent capture. The excess Tiger crews were employed as infantry at the Gerbini Airfield, despite the strongest arguments from the Tiger-Kompanie commander. During the further retreat, employed as a rearguard, three of the last four Tigers broke down and were blown to prevent capture. The portal crane, so important for repairing Tigers, was blown up by the Werstatt-Kompanie . The last Tiger was transported across the straits to the mainland of Italy.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&p=102332
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 28 Mar 2012, 11:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Göring - not Goering !!

keith A
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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#13

Post by keith A » 13 Mar 2012, 09:48

Cheers Ironmachine, that seems to sort out the question of the Tigers being ko'd by Shermans or anything else. Looks like either the Shermans destroyed mkIVs or hit abandoned Tigers, which does seem more plausible.

thanks

Keith

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#14

Post by LWD » 13 Mar 2012, 15:14

keith A wrote:Cheers Ironmachine, that seems to sort out the question of the Tigers being ko'd by Shermans or anything else. Looks like either the Shermans destroyed mkIVs or hit abandoned Tigers, which does seem more plausible.
There are a fair number of verified accounts of Shermans taking out Tigers. While the Sherman did indeed have problems penetrating the frontal armor on a Tiger that isn't the only way to take one out.

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Re: Panzers in Sicily

#15

Post by Kingfish » 13 Mar 2012, 16:56

Just ram them.
Works every time.

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