Italian Invasion of France,1940

[Daniel S.]

What do you think about this campaign?Just a quote from the site:

Mussolini drove to Lanslebourg, in Maurienne, to congratulate the Italian troops who had fought on the Alpine front. On the way down from the Mont-Cenis pass he noticed a fort on his left flying the French tricoleur. This was the La Turra fort, 9000 feet above sea level, defended by Sub-Lieutenants Prudhon and Chandesris with nine NCOs and forty-one Chasseurs and gunners. They had held out, despite being surrounded by several divisions, for ten days. Mussolini ordered them to be freed with honours of war.

Fifty-two French chasseurs held a fort surrounded by several Italian divisions for ten days,it's amazing!

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dpohara/alpine.htm

[James McBride]

Not quite your topic, but somewhat related. Were there many Italians living in the area around Savoy and Nice? I believe those were the two regions annexed by the Italians, and I don't know why they take those two little pockets in France in particular. It ended up being a bad move to go into the war for the Italians, so it doesn't make sense.

James

[Daniel S.]

Not quite your topic, but somewhat related. Were there many Italians living in the area around Savoy and Nice? I believe those were the two regions annexed by the Italians, and I don't know why they take those two little pockets in France in particular. It ended up being a bad move to go into the war for the Italians, so it doesn't make sense.

James

I don't know how many Italians were living around Savoy and Nice but this campaign was a humiliating start in WWII for the Italians since they didn't succeeded in defeating those few troops that French had at border.
The only 'excuse' for Italian failure is roughly terrain and the French forts.
The French were few but well entrenched in that Alpine region.

[SM79Sparviero]

According to Von Clausewitz an attack to France through the Alpine Region was as "to catch your enemy's rifle by the extremity of the bayonet".
Mussolini's war to France was a shame because he believed in an easy victory over an army that had to face the German Parzerdivisionen.A loyal warrior faces his enemy !
Remember, howewer, that no bombs were dropped by the Italian Bombers over non-militar targets, BR-20 and SM-79 unsuccesfully tried to bomb the French alpine forts.The unsuccessful fighter-bombers Breda-88 striked 3 times Corse militar airports and the Dewoitine 520 couldn't catch them!
Two French heavy cruisers and 4 destroyers bombed Savona and Vado Ligure and destroyed some civilian houses buth the fleet immediately escaped after the attack of some small torpedo-boats and three Fiat Br-20.

[Lupo Solitario]

Substantially it was a non-campaign: Italy declared war to france June 10th, 1940 but italian army received order not to move and stay on defensive position. Only June 20th, approaching definitive french breakdown, Mussolini ordered army to sudden attack but an army as 1940 italian one couldn't pass from defensive to offensive position on an high mountain terrain in an hour. As a result, at June 22nd French surrended when the largest part of italian army had still to see the french border. What really happened were few border fightings, about half of italian deads in June 1940 died iced for bad quality of equipment.
For armistice commas, italian army stopped on armistice line and substantially didn't occupy anything in france until november 1942.

The so-called Costa Azzurra (blue coast) and the city of Nice (italian Nizza) were largely an italian speech area and had been part of the Kingdom of Piedmont until 1860 when they were given to france as exchange for the help in conquering Lombardy and northern italy in 1859. The french-speaking mountain province of Savoy had been given in the same occasion. This explains the fascist claims in 1940

[Daniel S.]

According to Von Clausewitz an attack to France through the Alpine Region was as "to catch your enemy's rifle by the extremity of the bayonet".

Well,this is what I believe too.Mussolini thought it is possible,though.This short war could be interesting by the match between the elite mountain troops of those two countries-French chasseurs vs. Italian alpini.
It seems the French prevailed but no surprise when you stay into a fort!The question is why the Italian bombers and artillery were so ineffective to deal with these forts...

[SM79Sparviero]

No surprise! In 2003 anyone can severely damage an heavily armoured fort by an air bombing ,anyone who can drop a GBU laser beam riding armour-piercing bomb from an F-15.
In 1940 maybe a (very lucky) dive bomber could be successful against a French alpine fort , es. a ju-87Dora with a PC-1400 .
Italian bombers used 100,250, 500 kg high exposive weapons and 160 kg armour piercing weapons , all oo light and unuseful against an heavily armoured fort.
Alpini and Guardia Alla Frontiera ( italian fort troopers) fought bravery as in the striking assault to the fort Chenillet ( 30th fanteria "Assietta" with Carabinieri and assault troopers "Arditi").
As at Eben-Emael , flamethrowers and TNT ere the most successful and cheap weapons against forts.
The 800 kg aircraft bombs were not ready because of technical failures, a new 640 kg armour piercing bomb was ready (from a 380 mm naval shell) was ready and could be useful but the very old officers of the headquarter ( "Comando Supremo") , 10-15 year older than British, French and German ones , were usually afraid about any tecnhical evolution!
The most powerful of the Italian forts of Vallo alpino, Batteria Chaberton 3200 mts high, 8 149/35 mm guns with the purpose of long range strike beyond the French border ( "interdizione lontana"), was severely damaged by a battery of 3 280 mm Mortars hidden at Poet Morand, leaded by Leutenant Miguet but the italian soldiers went on shooting bravery with the two surviving guns against the forts Troi Tetes,Janus , Gondran, Infernet , Olive.But they could not answer to the most important target at Poet Morand , a long range gun for ballistic reasons can't answer to an hidden mortar!

[Daniel S.]

SM79Sparviero,you posted a very interesting info about this short 'campaign'.I think one of the key elements were those hidden French mortars...if one Italian reconnaissance patrol or air rec would have discovered in time those mortars maybe the outlook would have been different...the Italians would use assault troops to attack the mortars...then Chaberton battery would take one by one the forts...but that's an "what if" scenario and history is just one.But what do you think,in an open terrain,who would prevail chasseurs or alpini?.(I know you have a sympathy for Italiens but try to be objective)

[Tancred]

Not quite your topic, but somewhat related. Were there many Italians living in the area around Savoy and Nice? I believe those were the two regions annexed by the Italians, and I don't know why they take those two little pockets in France in particular. It ended up being a bad move to go into the war for the Italians, so it doesn't make sense.

James

Nice and Savoy were ceded to France in 1859 in return for help in the Italian war of independence against Austria. Although Savoy was entirely Francophone, Nice was purely Italian in language and culture.

[David Lehmann]

Mussolini assaulted with 650 000 men (about 20 first echelon divisions) against the Alpes. The army of general Olry (France) had only 85 000 men and the country is then already deadly hurt by the Wehrmacht who is going to attack this same army in its rears. The armistice of the 25th june arrived and no position was lost in this sector.
The overwhelming numeric superiority of the Italians is hampered because of the meteo and the terrain which limited the motorized movements. The French fortifications constructed in the '30s were also really efficient in this sector. At the end the Italians had lost 6000 men against less than 300 for the French Army.

[JLEES]

Lupo Solitario and Tancred,
I have an Italian postcard commemorating the 15th Corps’ campaign against France in 1940. The card depicts a soldier belonging to the corps knocking over a sign that says “France 1861.” If this area was Europe became French in 1860, why would the card say 1861? Also did Mussolini get all these areas annexed onto Italy at the 1940 peace confrence with France?
James

[Lupo Solitario]

Ciao James
I have to control when exactly Nice had been given to france cause there had been a bit of diplomatic confusion at time...About second question, no, mussolini had practically nothing in 1940. All Mussolini had with 1940 armistice were some little position on the border and a "demilitarized" zone. Stop. Germans opposed until 1942 to any occupation of French territories.
It's interesting that france drained a lot of italian forces, an army of about ten of the best italian divisions had been kept on french border until 1942...
I repeat, in 1940 was practically no campaign, when ceasefire happened about 70% of italian forces had still to see a frenchman

[JLEES]

Lupo Solitario,
I thought you might be interested in the image nevertheless.
James

[SM79Sparviero]

650.000 men versus 85.000 French Soldiers are not real numbers.
The French Alpine Army(Armée des Alpes) had no less than 200.000 soldiers leaded by General René-Henry Orly : two infantry divisions, the mountain troops ( Bataillons Alpin de Forteresse and Bataillons Chasseurs Alpins), colonial elite troopers (Tirailleurs Sénégalaises) and, along the border,reconeissance raiders platoons, each 40 men ( S.E.S., Sections Eclaireurs Skieurs)
Italian line:no more than 300,000 soldiers and 12,600 officers of Gruppo d' Armate Ovest, leaded by Prince Umberto di Savoia: fourth armata ( corpi d' armata I. IV and Alpino), first Armata ( corpi d' Armata II, III and XV), Guardie Alla Frontiera , Guardie di Finanza, Carabinieri.

The Italian troops surely could not overcome the "alpine maginot".

It was a "cluster" of small battles between infantry troopers in an alpine background, and not a true challenge between the mountain elite divisions Alpini and Chasseurs Alpins.
Italians won some of these battles :
June, 22, Divisione Sforzesca (infantry) penetrated into Bois de Sestriéres and Bois de Prairia together with a platoon of Carabinieri and some tankettes L3 . They conquered Montgenèvre and la Crete de Chaussard

June, 23: Fort Chenillet was conquered by "Arditi Guastatori",a Carabinieri platoon and infantry division "Assietta"

June,25: 200 soldiers of Guardia Alla Frontiera supported by 5-6 tankettes L3 started an assault WWI-style to Moncenisio and conquered Fort Arcellins , Cima della Nunda but the Chasseurs Alpins imposed to them an "impasse" at le Petit Turra.

[Daniel S.]

SM79Sparviero,from the battles you mention,I see there is no one in which Alpini are involved.It's seems quite strange that Italians attacked with infantry,frontier guards and carabinieri into a mountain region where the most suitable force would be Alpini. :roll: