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David Thompson
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#181

Post by David Thompson » 18 Sep 2004, 02:05

This section of the forum deals with war crimes. War crimes, crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and conspiracy all have internationally accepted definitions. The terms "terrorism" and "terrorists" don't. Unless and until there is a general agreement as to what terms like "terrorism" and "terrorist" actually mean, which provides an explanation as to how one can distinguish something that is from something that isn't, there's not a lot of point in using such terms -- unless you're engaged in politics or propaganda.

Michael asked:
Perhaps the moderator, as a person with legal expertise, could provide an opinion on the legality of armed uprisings by a section of the population against a legally constituted authority, such as that of Polish secret organisations against the German Government in the German Posen Province at the end of 1918.
This moderator doesn't think he has much legal expertise, but the usual rule is that the legally constituted authority has the obligation to avoid war crimes, crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, and if it does, the population has the obligation to obey the civil and criminal laws enacted by that legally constituted authority.

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boobazzz
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#182

Post by boobazzz » 18 Sep 2004, 13:00

Thak you David for makng that point, however I wanted to ephasise I did not question the definition of terrorism as such, but I asked Michael to provide us with documeted examples of 'terrorist acts' commited by Poles to German civilians, so we could discuss if there were any and of its potential illegial and criminal character. None examples given.
... authority has the obligation to avoid war crimes, crimes against peace and crimes against humanity...
now we are at the very starting point again; did the German authorities persecute Polish population? Conducted mistreatment (Wrzesnia school strike), law-oriented persecution (the case of Drzymala)? I say they did, my source is N. Davies, of which I mentioned numerous times. So does this rule apply to XIX/XX cetury Wielkopolska then?

Besides the rule David called apllies in the case of legal constitution of authorities.

The other question is if in the light of this rule the whole independence movements in Africa in 60s were legal (or of terrorist character)? Or the emergence of United States of America in XVIII century was legal? Was the thriving of Polish nation to constitute their own state on their very own land [(Wielkopolska is in fact the nest of slavic tribe Polans, who in IX and Xthe ceturies managed to unify the other slavoinic tribes in the Polish lowland into an independent state called afterwards Polska, which approved Christianity i Xth century; the first King of Polish Kingdom was Mieszko the First, the protoplast of Piast Dynasty; the dynistes changed, but the state contunied to exists - even as a super power in the then contemporary sence - till the end of XVIII century, i.e. seizure partitions between Russia, Prussia and Austria) illigal then?

Were they really terrorists? Actually Michael, how dare you to call them so? The protoplast of modern Poland - internationallly recognised and indepentent state - were terrorists?
Do you also question the infromation privided by Poznan official authorities? On what basis?


I just wanted to make this point, but as I declared earlier, I am not going to contunue the discussion with Michael, who once again used modern example of moder policy justified by modern political situation as a parralell to the 90 years old events. Not to mention that it was in absolutely no way a documented example of acts, of which I asked him many times. Michael just restrict himslef to run around general definitions. But I wanted specific examples, Michael. How many German civilinas took harm from Poles? What kind of harm? Where it was? Who was responsible? I wanted names, places, facts, and reliable sources on that. That's all.
But I don't care anymore, as I know Michael is not able to do so as opinions he's expressed on Poles were of his own, personal, subjective point of view.

Besides, Michael, take a closer look at the uniforms (on the other pictures of the link too). What elements are specificaly German? A helmet? what else? a machine gun? That's all I am afraid, the rest has strictly own Polish character. (eagles, distinctions, caps, even the very pattern of uniforms).

You know, during the Warsaw Uprising (August '44) Poles wore German uniforms too, and what is more, the were also called 'terrorists' or just 'bandits' by .... Germans themselves. And were 'punished' ruthlessly when captured....
The fate was even worse in case of Uprising in Warsaw Ghetto (April/may 1943), but the diference was that the Jews did not have even one tiniest helmet, just civilian clothes.
Maybe you should use the above for paralell endeavour as more appropriate to your point.

pozdrawiam,

B.


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Peter H
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#183

Post by Peter H » 18 Sep 2004, 15:35

Something on Poles in the German Army 1914-18 can be found here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34347

Fredd has also provided a population map of the Posen district circa 1900:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=51746

Fredd also comments:
...a treaty signed 16th January 1919 in Trewir Germany recognized the Army of Wielkopolska as a part of Ententa forces (of course did it under French pressure).

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boobazzz
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#184

Post by boobazzz » 18 Sep 2004, 16:52

Peter, thanks for the links, the map is particularly informative.
Maybe it will help Michael to locate those alledged acts of Polish terror.
With names ans places. And sources of course.

regards!
B.
nb. btw. Michael, recently I've come across Irving's (most famous Holocaust denier) www site, so just of curiosity: do you have anything in common with the person described here:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/Forward100300.html

if so it explains a lot to me....
Last edited by boobazzz on 19 Sep 2004, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

walterkaschner
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#185

Post by walterkaschner » 19 Sep 2004, 09:31

David Thompson wrote:
Michael asked:
Perhaps the moderator, as a person with legal expertise, could provide an opinion on the legality of armed uprisings by a section of the population against a legally constituted authority, such as that of Polish secret organisations against the German Government in the German Posen Province at the end of 1918.
This moderator doesn't think he has much legal expertise, but the usual rule is that the legally constituted authority has the obligation to avoid war crimes, crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, and if it does, the population has the obligation to obey the civil and criminal laws enacted by that legally constituted authority.
Well, as one who has to bow exceedingly low to our moderator in terms of quantum of legal expertise, I am compelled nonetheless to venture far out on a shaky limb and express an opinion. And that simply is, that while I would agree with David's articulation of the duty of the legally constituted authority, I have some serious reservations as to his concept of the obligation of the subject population.

Frankly, it seems to me that it is pointless to debate the "legality" of an armed uprising or revolution against a legally constituted authority. Clearly any such authority has as a practical matter the right , and perhaps even the obligation, to declare rebellion or revolution against its authority as illegal, and therefor subject to the full power of which the authority is capable of exercising against it. Otherwise the Stars and Bars would be flying over the capitol of Texas rather than the Stars and Stripes. But to be other than an empty concept, "law" must have a power of enforcement behind it - either by brute force, or by moral or religious sanction.

So what of a successful revolution, which was not based on war crimes, crimes against peace or crimes against humanity by the duly constituted authority?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
[My emphasis.]

The litany that followed that declaration does not, IMHO, make much of a case for war crimes, crimes against peace or crimes against humanity. Was the American Revolution technically illegal? Well, it certainly was under British law of the day, and as Ben Franklin so keenly recognized, "If we don't hang together, then we will each hang separately."

But it seems to me to be stale, flat and unprofitable to dispute the "legality" of that, or of any other revolution. If the duly constituted authority lacks the power to enforce its laws against its subjects, then how can a breach of them be "illegal"? And if so to what effect?

If the effect is to nullify in the eyes of the world the outcome of the revolution, then the Union Jack rather than the Stars and Stripes should fly over Washington, D.C.; the Fleurs de Lys rather than the Tricolor over the Assemblée Nationale; the Spanish Flag over almost every South or Central American capital; the Portugese flag over Brazil and - GOOD GRIEF!! - the Mexican flag, or I guess the Spanish, over our capital in Austin, Texas.

I don't wish to get into a jurisprudential debate here, but it does seem to me that any meaningful concept of the term "legality" has to have the notion of capacity of enforcement behind it. And so if a revolution is succesful in overthrowing an established authority it can not be regarded as "illegal" at the point where the overthrown authority no longer holds the power to enforce its own laws against it.

Just a couple of late night thoughts, at the risk of boring all and sundry, after a nice bottle of Chalon Ségur '95 courtesy of a friend.

Regards, Kaschner
Last edited by walterkaschner on 19 Sep 2004, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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#186

Post by David Thompson » 19 Sep 2004, 17:53

You are absolutely right, Walter. Thank you for recalling an eloquent formulation of human rights which is far more apt for this discussion than any legalistic concept of "crimes against humanity" or "legally constituted authority."

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#187

Post by michael mills » 20 Sep 2004, 03:54

Walter Kaschner wrote:
And so if a revolution is succesful in overthrowing an established authority it can not be regarded as "illegal" at the point where the overthrown authority no longer holds the power to enforce its own laws against it.
The bottom line of the above seems to be that "might is right".

That is, in a group of insurgents succeed in overthrowing an established authority, and removing its power to enforce laws against them, then any acts committed by them in the act of overthrow, or thereafter, are ipso facto legal.

Any sort of war-crime or crime against humanity could therefore be considered legal on the above basis. All that is necessary is for the entity that committed those crimes to remain in power, so that laws cannot be enforced against it.

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#188

Post by walterkaschner » 21 Sep 2004, 01:57

I would have hoped that Mr. Mills would have read my post more carefully, but perhaps I should have crafted it more carefully.

The specific issue I attempted to deal with, perhaps inartfully, was simply the one initially raised by Mr. Mills himself:
...the legality of armed uprisings by a section of the population against a legally constituted authority....
[My emphasis.]

My comments were not intended to, nor did they, concern themselves with what is right, just, proper or moral. They were directed at the concept of "legality", which to my mind, although related, is really quite a different thing.

Failure to love one's neighbor as oneself may not be right, indeed it may be unjust, improper and immoral - but it is not illegal, at least not in any jurisdiction I am familiar with. Issues of what is right, just, proper, or moral are the proper domain of philosophers, moralists and theologians. We lawyers are condemned to concern ourselves with the more mundane, but more practical, issues involving "legality" - how, for instance, to put a miscreant in, or to keep a client out of, the slammer; or how to obtain, or avoid, a substantial judgement for, or against, a client. In other words, what will properly invoke the power of the sovereign authority to exercise its power to compel.

Thus to me it seems that, while it is perfectly legitimate and perhaps even fruitful, to debate whether or not rebellion either in general or in the specific is just or moral ( I seem to recollect that theologians have over the centuries been much concerned with this issue, even in the case of an admittedly unjust and tyranical sovereign), it is tolerably clear to me that it is pointless to debate its "legality" or "illegality" as such.

To my mind, an "illegal" action is one which would be subjected to sanction by a fair and reasonable application of the rules of the appropriate governing body ; a "legal" action is one which would not.

Obviously an armed rebellion is "illegal" insofar as the laws of the sovereign entity against which it is directed are concerned. If it fails, its perpetrators risk incurring the sanctions that the sovereign's laws provide. But if the revolution prevails, any issue of its "legality" simply vanishes, for it is clearly ludicrous to suppose that the victorious perpetrators would sanction themselves for having succeeded in what they set out to do; and the deposed sovereign (even he escapes with his head) is lacking a tribunal to test or the power to sanction any "illegality". The issue is clearly moot.

It does not, however, follow as Mr. Mills would have it, that if
...a group of insurgents succeed in overthrowing an established authority, and removing its power to enforce laws against them, then any acts committed by them in the act of overthrow, or thereafter, are ipso facto legal.

Any sort of war-crime or crime against humanity could therefore be considered legal on the above basis. All that is necessary is for the entity that committed those crimes to remain in power, so that laws cannot be enforced against it.


Mr. Mills simply fails to distinguish between the act of insurgency itself, and the specific means which insurgents may employ in the course of achieving their success.

For example, an action such as murder, rape, pillage and plunder is today generally recognized throughout the civilized world (and in much of the uncivilized) as malum in se (evil in itself) and subject to sanction wherever proper jurisdiction may be found. I believe the same has now, but more recently, become the case with war crimes and crimes against humanity. However, no such universal consensus as to rebellion exists today (although it may have during certain periods in the past), and it accordingly falls into the category of malum prohibitum (evil by prohibition) and is generally only subject to sanction by the government toward which it was directed.

It may, of course, well be that the successful insurgents may be unwilling to prosecute one of their members for crimes committed during the course of the insurgency, but that does not mean that the distinction is without a difference. If the perpetrator or the crime has a sufficient jurisdictional nexus with another state, he may be subject to prosecution and sanction by that other state.

For example, a Chechen insurgent has not, simply because of his insurgency, violated any US law and has not as such done anything "illegal" in the eyes of the US. However, were he to have murdered a US citizen or stolen a US citizen's property in the course of the insurgency he could be tried and sanctioned in the US assuming he were found within the jurisdiction of a US court.

Of course an insurgent who commits a generally recognized crime may, as a practical matter, remain free of sanction by the new government he helped establish if he stays confined to his home land, but should he wish to venture abroad he could find himself the subject of prosecution in another jurisdiction. So in effect he could be indirectly sanctioned by the limitation on his freedom of movement.

I hope this too prolix explanation does more to clarify than to obfuscate.

Regards, Kaschner

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#189

Post by Dan » 21 Sep 2004, 02:07

Failure to love one's neighbor as oneself may not be right, indeed it may be unjust, improper and immoral - but it is not illegal, at least not in any jurisdiction I am familiar with
.

Whoa! Great posts all. Thanks ever so much from me, and I suspect many others. Heavy stuff here.

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#190

Post by szopen » 22 Sep 2004, 10:05

One last simple question to Micheal Mills. He was very ften quoting here that "Poles wanted all German land up to Berlin", never really specifying what Poles (most extreme nationalist Dmowski wanted IIRC only part Silesia, Posen, Masuria and Gdansk POmmerania, but i could be wrong, he changed his plans so often).

I wonder whether M. Mills do know about plans of some nationalists German organisations of deporting all Poles or at least all Polish landowners to Polish kingdom, incorporating large part of it (and deporting Polish population to the east) etc? If you want, i will provide dates and sources.

It should be noted that those were not government plans (at least, there are no written documents: book i have read claims that German governor received only oral order to start deportations, so it's not really reliable), but then - Micheal Mills also is not quoting Polish government plans.

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#191

Post by michael mills » 23 Sep 2004, 02:23

I am well aware that, after German and Austrian forces occupied Russian Poland in 1915, the German High Command, in particular Hindenburg and Ludendorff, proposed the annexation of large parts of that territory on strategic grounds.

Their proposal was opposed by the German civilian ministries, in particular by the Foreign Minister Richard von Kühlmann, a Bavarian, on the grounds that such an annexation would bring many more millions of Poles under German sovereignty and thereby exacerbate the ethnic conflict that had been causing problems in the German eastern territories for decades. The German civilian ministries proposed reviving the Kingdom of Poland on the territory of Russian Poland (Kongresowka), thereby restoring the original provisions of the Congress of Vienna, except that the king would be a member of one of the German dynasties rather than the Tsar' of Russia.

The proposal to put a German princeling on the throne of Poland had good historical precedents. When Greece and then Bulgaria became independent in the 19th Century, they were both given monarchs drawn from German dynasties. Furthermore, Poland had no native royal dynasty with a claim to the throne.

Eventually, the German Kaiser accepted the proposal of Kühlmann (which received support from Austria), and moves toward creating an independent Kingdom of Poland with links to Germany were commenced in 1916, as I have previously written. It is noteworthy that Germany did not actually foist a German prince on the Poles, but set up a Regency Council consisting of senior Polish churchmen and nobles.

My source for all the above is the book "Brest-Litovsk : The Forgotten Peace, March 1918", by Sir John Wheeler-Bennett (published London, 1938).

Wheeler-Bennett was an intensely anti-German historian, so it cannot be said that the above work in any way is an apologia for Germany.

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#192

Post by michael mills » 23 Sep 2004, 02:31

Further to my previous message, I am also aware that one of the German generals (I cannot remember whether it was Seeckt or Hoffmann), proposed pushing Poles and many other peoples to East so as to settle their lands with Germans.

After the First World War, Seeckt was one of the main proponents of a policy of demolishing Poland, and brough about the secret reichswehr cooperation with the Red Army for that ultimate purpose.

By contrast, Max Hoffmann, who had been the de-facto commander of German forces in the East during the war and was the prime mover behind the two Treaties of Brest-Litovsk, the first with the People's Republic of Ukraine and the second with the "Russian Empire", soon after the war adopted a policy of crushing Bolshevism in Russia, and proposed alliances with Germany's former enemies, including Poland, for that purpose.

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#193

Post by szopen » 23 Sep 2004, 11:06

Happy you admitted it. You see, there is difference between some people and organisations wanting something, and officials. I am able to believe that there were some fringe Polish organisations which wanted ethinc cleansing and acquisition of lands of so far as to the Berlin. But similarly, as you may see, there were Germans and German organisations which proposed almost exaclty the same.

AS for German propositions, they all came too late. If Germans would actually gave some power - administration etc - into Polish hands, it would look differently. But as you know they first started recruiting people and then annoucned that after war there would be small Polish kingdom. It necesarily make Poles suspect of good intentions of German government. Nobody believed in German good intentions and they were commonly seen as only way to get new cannon fodder. The actions of some German organisation didn;t help either.

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#194

Post by Obserwator » 23 Sep 2004, 18:04

am able to believe that there were some fringe Polish organisations which wanted ethinc cleansing and acquisition of lands of so far as to the Berlin
I never heard of such organisations, and without proof I will not believe that such organisations existed.

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#195

Post by michael mills » 24 Sep 2004, 03:23

I never heard of such organisations, and without proof I will not believe that such organisations existed.
Never heard of Endecja and Nara?

I suggest reading this book by Raymond Leslie Buell:

"Poland: Key to Europe" (published in London, Jonathan Cape, 1939).

Buell was very sympathetic to Poland, and certainly not pro-German. Nevertheless he criticised the chauvinism of Dmowski and similar extremist nationalist movements in West Poland.

Besides, I have already quoted a passage from the book by Günther Deschner that refers to such an organisation, the "Western March Union" (apparently the translation of the original Polish title).

Is it claimed that Deschner was falsifying?

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