British Army at home September 1940

[phylo_roadking]

Courtesy of Juha's posting up of that earlier-reproduced, much smaller original - it's now noticable that the sides of the vehicle bulge outward behind the driver/passenger compartment - thus providing room to accomodate a crew. Remember - that's not a turret, just a pintle-mounted 6pdr with it's original curved gunshield, just like the Dymchurch armoured train.

[Knouterer]

Armoured trains:
Actually there were a few more than I thought I remembered, construction started in May and a first batch of seven (numbered A through G) entered service on 30 June, with J through M following on 10 July. The picture posted by Gooner shows a loc (Type 1-2-1 F4 of the LNER) that’s only partially armoured, later on they were more completely clad in armour. The gun trucks were 20-ton coal trucks, cut down at one end for the 6pdr and protected by a layer of concrete between steel plates. Crews were provided by the R.A.C., one officer, 7 NCOs and 39 ORs per train. In addition, there were 8 Royal Engineers to keep the train running (reference: P. Malmassari, Les Trains Blindés 1826-1989, p. 262-270).
Trains E and F together made up Group 2 in Kent/Sussex, but F was sent to Devon at the end of July. Until then, it had patrolled the line from Ashford to Lewes at night, with a detour at Appledore down to Dungeness and back (According to J. Goodwin, Defending the Sussex Beaches, p. 31) Train E worked out of Tonbridge and had a more irregular schedule it seems.
As I said, most of the trains ended up in Scotland, where they were were useful for patrolling long stretches of coastline. From early 1941, all trains were manned by Polish crews, and in 1943 they were demobbed.

[phylo_roadking]

As I said, most of the trains ended up in Scotland, where they were were useful for patrolling long stretches of coastline. From early 1941, all trains were manned by Polish crews, and in 1943 they were demobbed.

According to Bovington, who have a replica of the gun wagon on display, their use continued in Scotland until November 1944. However - the Poles stopped manning them for that final year, they were handed over to the Home Guard.

Trains E and F together made up Group 2 in Kent/Sussex, but F was sent to Devon at the end of July. Until then, it had patrolled the line from Ashford to Lewes at night, with a detour at Appledore down to Dungeness and back (According to J. Goodwin, Defending the Sussex Beaches, p. 31) Train E worked out of Tonbridge and had a more irregular schedule it seems.

Train B...was based at Alnmouth from 1940 until April 1942, and covered the area between Newcastle and Berwick.

Train C...was by the end of 1940 the only armoured train left patrolling Suffolk after a reorganisation; it patrolled the following lines:
Ipswich – Lowestoft
Saxmundham – Aldeburgh
Wickham Market – Framlingham
Ipswich – Felixstowe
Lowestoft – Beccles – Bungay – Tivetshall St Margaret – Stowmarket – Ipswich
Ipswich – Bury St Edmunds – Newmarket

http://pillboxes-suffolk.webeden.co.uk/ ... 4544948543

Train K...was used in East Lothian. Full details of its service up until November 1944 here - http://eastlothianatwar.co.uk/armouredtrain.html

Train D and a.n.other...patrolled the line between Padstow and Wadebridge, also the GWR line from Launceston to Fowey by way of Bodmin(GWR) and St Austell. Here's D at Wadebridge.

[phylo_roadking]

According to Nigel Thomas, Foreign Volunteers of the Allied Forces 1939-45, the Poles were organised into four Armoured train Battalions, each responsible for crewing 2-5 trains. He says 47 Officers and 5 Other Ranks per train crew - I've a feeling this is back-to-front! They were based for organisational purposes in Perth, York, Devon and Essex.

The First Battalion (Polish: I dywizjon) operated trains: C, G and E.
The Second Battalion (II dywizjon) – trains: A, D and F.
The Third Battalion (III dywizjon) – trains: B, M and H.
The Fourth Battalion (IV dywizjon) – trains: K, L and J.

It was actually the wagons themselves that made the armoured trains possible at short notice. Being of all-steel construction, obviously armour plate, gun mounts etc. could be welded straight onto the steel floor of the wagon. These were actually quite new into service, replacing earlier, wooden-sided rolling stock.

[sitalkes]

Thanks for the train info. Interesting that there were so few armoured trains down south, maybe they were thought too vulnerable to air attack? Were the other trains of the same model - looks like all they had was one armed wagon in front, and one armed wagon behind the loco? By the way I found out that ickle means little - but am still not any wiser as the type and calibre of that gun.

[Knouterer]

The six-pounder was discussed at some length on page 17 of the sadly defunct previous Sealion thread, I believe you were there?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=240

[phylo_roadking]

Thanks for the train info. Interesting that there were so few armoured trains down south, maybe they were thought too vulnerable to air attack?

That's one possible aspect - note the loco itself isn't armoured, and locos punctured by cannon fire do tend to go bang quite violently! Another would be that by 1941, anti-invasion defence plans were far better developed than in 1940, and they were increasingly surplus to requirements within each element of the defence scheme. Another aspect would be the sheer volume of traffic on the lines along the South Coast, particularly in Kent and Sussex, part of the "commuter belt" by train for some of the two million workers who travelled in and out of London each day!...it must have been hard to schedule regular patrols in and around other traffic on some of the busier routes.

And of course - as anti-invasion patrols, they would only ever be effective on portions of the rail network that ran alongside or within gunnery range of a prospective landing beach anyway!

Were the other trains of the same model -

Yes, they were all LNER F4s...

looks like all they had was one armed wagon in front, and one armed wagon behind the loco?

The pic of the armoured wagon immediately behind the loco is actually not typical; the "regulation" set-up for the twelve armoured trains was the armoured wagon separated from the loco by the cargo flat wagon you can see in some pics above. It's been years since I first read about them in a railway modelling magazine, but the idea of the set-up...

...armoured gun wagon - cargo flat wagon - loco - cargo flat wagon - armoured gun wagon...

...was that the flat wagon put a little distance away from any rounds fired at the gun wagon and the vulnerable loco; and also the flat wagon was also ballasted to absorb any torsional forces from the recoil of the admittedly-lower velocity 6-pdr guns....so that if the armoured gun wagon was rocking from side to side on the rails as it fired "broadside", there was a minimum of "sympathetic" movement reached the loco.

And finally -

By the way I found out that ickle means little - but am still not any wiser as the type and calibre of that gun.

...it's the old "revised" 6-pounder tank gun from WWI - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_6_pound ... _Hotchkiss the 1917-onwards shortbarrelled version.

[Knouterer]

A few pictures of the loco conversion, from Malmassari ... initially only the cab was armoured, later on (1941?) armour protection was extended over most of the engine.
Anyway, we seem to be agreed that only train E could have played a role in the early stages of an invasion. It might possibly have done some execution if it had caught German columns without armour or AT guns in open terrain (the Downs).
Re the trains largely crewed by Polish officers, I think that's correct, there was a very large surplus of officers in the Polish forces in Britain at that time if I remember correctly.

[phylo_roadking]

A few pictures of the loco conversion, from Malmassari ... initially only the cab was armoured, later on (1941?) armour protection was extended over most of the engine.

To be fair, the pics don't actually show much of a change at all; what is illustrated there is that apart from the spanking new camo job, the only visible extra protection in the middle pic added from the top pic is the protective box cover put over the LNER vacuum brake system in front of the pannier tank Whereas the top pic illustrates that at that point in time, as per the caption,"many parts are still vulnerable"...

THIS is actually the later incarnation of the uparmouring....



Here you can see the box covering the vacuum brake gear and coupling pipes more clearly - and that the only other upgrading done was little armoured covers over the whistle and safety valve and the one over the steam pipe joints on top of the boiler There's no extra protection for the boiler body itself, or the pressure dome.

[Dunserving]

Something that might interest..........

Kent County Council has an archive of aerial PR pictures and has had them stitched together to make a county wide image. Two versions exist, from the 1940s and 1960.

They have been added to Google Earth. Use the timeline slider to look at imagery from different dates. You should have no trouble in identifying all manner of defensive fortifications - and the effect of bombing.

This will be of interest to those considering the defences etc along the coast here. It is also interesting to examine shipping in the various dockyard facilities, eg Sheerness and Chatham.

[phylo_roadking]

Hi Dunserving - how do we get this up on GoogleEarth???

[rmb1956]

HI THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY MOST KIND OF YOU, HOW DO I GET THIS PARTICULAR GOGLE EARTH FROM KCC PLEASE THANK YOU

[phylo_roadking]

Now that I've got there,and had a look at Lympne, several things are noticable...

1/ the overlay is dated "12/40" So I presume December? Two replacement "blister" hangars have been erected to repalce the original Belfast truss ones that were all eventually destroyed as a result of the raids;

2/ the extent of destruction to the airfield's hutment and accomodation is very visible - the place was trashed! And...

3/ I would hate to have been anywhere nearl the place during the raids...they do say far more is visible from the air than at ground level, hence aerial archeology...but the entire area is pockmarked with bomb craters!

[Dunserving]

HI THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY MOST KIND OF YOU, HOW DO I GET THIS PARTICULAR GOGLE EARTH FROM KCC PLEASE THANK YOU

Start Google Earth and zoom in on south east England. Then, at the top of the screen look for a line of small icons. 13 of them. One looks like a clock with a green arrow over it, about the middle of the row. Click on it. A small window appears near the top of the screen - move the slider from left to right and you scroll through the Google Earth imagery from different years. The images supplied by Kent County Council will be to the left as they are the oldest.


Phylo! Re the date of the images. They must have been taken over a period of time, possibly lengthy. Having a close look at Canterbury I can see that some photographs were taken after the main Blitz raid of 1st June 1942, but others are before that date.

I would have put money on you heading straight for Lympne! The one thing that Lympne has in abundance is evidence of being bombed. The one thing that Lympne does NOT have in abundance is........ AIRCRAFT!

You can also see many of the gun emplacements along the coast. Including "Bruce".

[rmb1956]

Got IT MANY THANKS