TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Turkish tracks in Ta’if / Hejaz
Regarding the very interesting thread which have been discussed by Tosun Saral and stevebecker about
Lt. Gen. Galip Pasinler Pasha, last Ottoman Governor and Commander of Hejaz and the defence of the last
Turkish city in southern Hejaz, Ta’if, let me add some additional details and questions in this separate thread.
Here is one short summary about the events:
Ta’if was taken after three months siege from 10th June to 22nd September 1916 (74 days) by Emir Abdullah ibn Husain I.
» In the original attack plan of the revolt, Abdullah had been assigned to take Ta’if, which turned out to be a difficult task.
The problem was once again a heavily entrenched Turkish garrison and the Arabs´ lack of artillery. As an eyewitness
and principal to the attack, Abdullah has left a circumstantial account of the operation in his Memoirs, but we can see it
as well through very different eyes. When Harry St. John Philby was being shown around Ta’if in December 1917, he
was given an account of the battle by one of the participants. Mecca and Jidda had fallen rather quickly to the Sharifians,
and at that point Abdallah was despatched to effect the surrender of the last Turkish troops south of Medina, or, in other
words, to reduce Ta’if. Abdullah’s men had little difficulty with the Turks´ forward positions, but the fortified barracks and
the city itself were a different matter. These required siege artillery, provided courtesy of the British and manned by
Egyptian gunners. The guns were brought up through the mountains from Mecca only with the greatest difficulty. Mean-
while, the Turkish commander had set up his residence and headquarter in a specially constructed underground bunker
at one of the corner of the barracks square. The Arabs, however, had their unofficial artillery spotters within the city, and
Philbys´ guide pointed out a gaping hole in the bunker roof where the Egyptian artillery had scored a direct hit. Unfortunately
for Abdullah, the commandant was not there at the time, and he thereafter kept his quarters on the ground floor of a
merchant´s residence in the town. Abdullah’s spies in the city quickly reported the move, however, and after a massive
barrage, the merchant´s palatial house became the shuttered tomb of his family. Once again the commander was else-
where, but the message had been delivered. The next morning the Ottoman commander signalled his inglorious surrender.
Abdullah records the final scene, and the cautionary history lesson he read to the former Turkish Governor of the Hijaz:
My first meeting after the surrender with the Vali Ghalib Pasha (the chief Turkish
official in the province and one of the captives at Ta’if) was strange . . . I found him
in the large hall at Shubra Palace, the only general among seventy-five junior officers.
He seemed pleased to see me, and after several moments he said, “This is a great
catastrophe . . . we were brothers and now we are enemies” I felt bolder in his presence
now that our position were reserve, but said as gently as I could, “The master has become
the master again and is freed from slavery and the yoke of him whom he enlightened.”
His face became as white as a sheet, but he recovered himself and said, “I know that the
Arab nation would separate from us one day, but I never thought that it would happen so
quickly.” “You are right, “ I replied, “for speed was in our interest. If you had retained the
absolute authority of the Caliphate, we would never have risen against you, but your party
became despotic and dictated not only to your people but to the Sultan as well . . . However,
recriminations now will do no good. Please come in to dinner. I hope you will enjoy that
I have prepared for you after the rigors of the siege” (Abdullah 1950: 152 – 153) «
Source: MECCA, A literate history of the Muslim holy land, p. 364/365, F. E. Peters, Princetown University Press 1994
Insofar as one, of many British reports, but finally Wahhabi winners. Eight years later the Sharifian in the Hejaz were also
on the losing-side. To get an objective overlook, you have to read also what Tosun Saral translated from Turkish sources:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=130001
It seems to be that without the submitted, superior and all-decisive artillery, the taken of Ta’if by the Sharifian troops, led by
Emir Abdullah has in fact lasted much longer or maybe wouldn´t been possible. The following British artillery gone into action:
One battery, Ordnance QF 3,7 inch (9,4-cm) Mountain-howitzer and the other with, BL 5-inch (12,7-cm) Field Howitzer
Harry St. John Philby wrote later his book with some rare photos of the conquered Ta’if; taken one year later after the events:
Source: DAS GEHEIMNISVOLLE ARABIEN, II. Band (German Edition), Harry Philby, Leipzig 1925
Original: THE HEART OF ARABIA, A record of travel & exploration, Harry Philby, Constable, London 1922
https://archive.org/details/heartofarabiarec02philuoft)
Regarding the very interesting thread which have been discussed by Tosun Saral and stevebecker about
Lt. Gen. Galip Pasinler Pasha, last Ottoman Governor and Commander of Hejaz and the defence of the last
Turkish city in southern Hejaz, Ta’if, let me add some additional details and questions in this separate thread.
Here is one short summary about the events:
Ta’if was taken after three months siege from 10th June to 22nd September 1916 (74 days) by Emir Abdullah ibn Husain I.
» In the original attack plan of the revolt, Abdullah had been assigned to take Ta’if, which turned out to be a difficult task.
The problem was once again a heavily entrenched Turkish garrison and the Arabs´ lack of artillery. As an eyewitness
and principal to the attack, Abdullah has left a circumstantial account of the operation in his Memoirs, but we can see it
as well through very different eyes. When Harry St. John Philby was being shown around Ta’if in December 1917, he
was given an account of the battle by one of the participants. Mecca and Jidda had fallen rather quickly to the Sharifians,
and at that point Abdallah was despatched to effect the surrender of the last Turkish troops south of Medina, or, in other
words, to reduce Ta’if. Abdullah’s men had little difficulty with the Turks´ forward positions, but the fortified barracks and
the city itself were a different matter. These required siege artillery, provided courtesy of the British and manned by
Egyptian gunners. The guns were brought up through the mountains from Mecca only with the greatest difficulty. Mean-
while, the Turkish commander had set up his residence and headquarter in a specially constructed underground bunker
at one of the corner of the barracks square. The Arabs, however, had their unofficial artillery spotters within the city, and
Philbys´ guide pointed out a gaping hole in the bunker roof where the Egyptian artillery had scored a direct hit. Unfortunately
for Abdullah, the commandant was not there at the time, and he thereafter kept his quarters on the ground floor of a
merchant´s residence in the town. Abdullah’s spies in the city quickly reported the move, however, and after a massive
barrage, the merchant´s palatial house became the shuttered tomb of his family. Once again the commander was else-
where, but the message had been delivered. The next morning the Ottoman commander signalled his inglorious surrender.
Abdullah records the final scene, and the cautionary history lesson he read to the former Turkish Governor of the Hijaz:
My first meeting after the surrender with the Vali Ghalib Pasha (the chief Turkish
official in the province and one of the captives at Ta’if) was strange . . . I found him
in the large hall at Shubra Palace, the only general among seventy-five junior officers.
He seemed pleased to see me, and after several moments he said, “This is a great
catastrophe . . . we were brothers and now we are enemies” I felt bolder in his presence
now that our position were reserve, but said as gently as I could, “The master has become
the master again and is freed from slavery and the yoke of him whom he enlightened.”
His face became as white as a sheet, but he recovered himself and said, “I know that the
Arab nation would separate from us one day, but I never thought that it would happen so
quickly.” “You are right, “ I replied, “for speed was in our interest. If you had retained the
absolute authority of the Caliphate, we would never have risen against you, but your party
became despotic and dictated not only to your people but to the Sultan as well . . . However,
recriminations now will do no good. Please come in to dinner. I hope you will enjoy that
I have prepared for you after the rigors of the siege” (Abdullah 1950: 152 – 153) «
Source: MECCA, A literate history of the Muslim holy land, p. 364/365, F. E. Peters, Princetown University Press 1994
Insofar as one, of many British reports, but finally Wahhabi winners. Eight years later the Sharifian in the Hejaz were also
on the losing-side. To get an objective overlook, you have to read also what Tosun Saral translated from Turkish sources:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=130001
It seems to be that without the submitted, superior and all-decisive artillery, the taken of Ta’if by the Sharifian troops, led by
Emir Abdullah has in fact lasted much longer or maybe wouldn´t been possible. The following British artillery gone into action:
One battery, Ordnance QF 3,7 inch (9,4-cm) Mountain-howitzer and the other with, BL 5-inch (12,7-cm) Field Howitzer
Harry St. John Philby wrote later his book with some rare photos of the conquered Ta’if; taken one year later after the events:
Source: DAS GEHEIMNISVOLLE ARABIEN, II. Band (German Edition), Harry Philby, Leipzig 1925
Original: THE HEART OF ARABIA, A record of travel & exploration, Harry Philby, Constable, London 1922
https://archive.org/details/heartofarabiarec02philuoft)
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Turkish sources display some objective detail maps about the situation in the Hedjaz during summer and autumn 1916.
Hejaz - Map_01: Situation around Jeddah, Makka and Ta’if at the beginning of the Hashemite uprising.
Ta’if - Map_02: Situation at Ta’if up to the 12th June 1916
Ta’if - Map_03: Situation at Ta’if up to the 16th July 1916
Ta’if - Map_04: Situation at Ta’if up to the 22nd September 1916
Source: Dünya Savaşı’nda Türk Harbi – Hicaz, Asir, Yemen Cepheleri ve Libya Harekatı” Genelkurmay Yayınları
(Turkish Battles in the First World War – Hejaz, Asir, Yemen Fronts and Operations in Libya) Ankara, 1978.
Hejaz - Map_01: Situation around Jeddah, Makka and Ta’if at the beginning of the Hashemite uprising.
Ta’if - Map_02: Situation at Ta’if up to the 12th June 1916
Ta’if - Map_03: Situation at Ta’if up to the 16th July 1916
Ta’if - Map_04: Situation at Ta’if up to the 22nd September 1916
Source: Dünya Savaşı’nda Türk Harbi – Hicaz, Asir, Yemen Cepheleri ve Libya Harekatı” Genelkurmay Yayınları
(Turkish Battles in the First World War – Hejaz, Asir, Yemen Fronts and Operations in Libya) Ankara, 1978.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Here a few very rare photos from `Old´ Ta’if.
» An old photograph of the western corner of the wall, 1913 «
Source: TAIF - EDEN OF ARABIA, Mohsen bin Mohammad al-Dajani, Riyadh KSA 2009
» A rare view of Taif, perhaps in the 1890s, by an anonymous photographer «
Source: SAUDI ARABIA BY THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPHERS, William Facey, Stacy Internationals, London 1994
Source: http://www.al-taif.net
» Arab soldiers outside of Taif « (Sharifian troops after the 22nd September 1916)
Source: http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http ... cQrQMwGzhk
» An old photograph of the western corner of the wall, 1913 «
Source: TAIF - EDEN OF ARABIA, Mohsen bin Mohammad al-Dajani, Riyadh KSA 2009
» A rare view of Taif, perhaps in the 1890s, by an anonymous photographer «
Source: SAUDI ARABIA BY THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPHERS, William Facey, Stacy Internationals, London 1994
Source: http://www.al-taif.net
» Arab soldiers outside of Taif « (Sharifian troops after the 22nd September 1916)
Source: http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http ... cQrQMwGzhk
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
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Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Mate,
Thanks for that interesting comment.
Of cause I still haven't confirm if these officers were captured with Galip Pasa (Pasinler).
Commander 22nd Div - Col Vehip Bey (Kaçi)
128th Regt - Maj Huseyin Husnu (Kilkis)
129th Regt - LtCol Halil Bey
Also do we know the Artillery commander (22nd Artillery Regt) was captured with the two Artillery Bn's?
It looks like the 130th Regt with one Artllery Bn survived this action joined the 58th Div.
Cheers
S.B
Thanks for that interesting comment.
Of cause I still haven't confirm if these officers were captured with Galip Pasa (Pasinler).
Commander 22nd Div - Col Vehip Bey (Kaçi)
128th Regt - Maj Huseyin Husnu (Kilkis)
129th Regt - LtCol Halil Bey
Also do we know the Artillery commander (22nd Artillery Regt) was captured with the two Artillery Bn's?
It looks like the 130th Regt with one Artllery Bn survived this action joined the 58th Div.
Cheers
S.B
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
I have collect some background informations about the theatre of war in the western part of the Arabian Peninsula, and in theAlso do we know the Artillery commander (22nd Artillery Regt) was captured with the two Artillery Bn's?
first place I'm dependent on English, and very less German, sources. But another important factor are Turkish sources. Because
of this missing knowledge, special Turkish names and ranks Most of the information I have got from you and Tosun in these threads.
Turkish Divisions 1914-18 http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 75web.com/
Hicaz Front (1914-1919) http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... n#p1015542
So, unfortunately I am not be able to answer your questions regarding the persons.
If I am not wrong, the II. Battalion of the 130th Infantry Regiment, led by Captain Süleyman Şevket Bey, were roundedIt looks like the 130th Regt with one Artllery Bn survived this action joined the 58th Div.
up in Makka and nobody survived, because the Harb and Utaiba killed all prisoners. I am totally convinced that after the
beginning of June 2016, or during the siege of Jeddah, Makka or Ta’if not any Turkish unit could left (survived?) the Hejaz.
I didn´t find references about the I. and III. Battalion of the 130th Infantry Regiment in the positioning of the Turkish units.
One source promises some additional, previously unknown informations.
NEAR & MIDDLE EAST TITLES: RECORDS OF THE HIJAZ 1798 - 1925
http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/titled ... asp?tid=93
Special the two last parts of this gigantic piece of work looks very interesting. Only the price £ 2,850.00 is not a bargain.
Volume 7: 1910-1918
• Parliamentary elections to Sublime Porte, 1910
• Sherif of Mecca´s expedition against Ibn Saud, 1910
• Asir campaign against Idrissi, 1911
• Movement towards Arab independence, 1915
• Alliance between Sherif of Mecca and Britain, 1915
• The Arab Revolt, 1916-1918
• Local support and Muslim opinion, 1916
• Sherif created King of Hijaz, 1916
• Military operations at Taif, Rabegh, Mecca, 1916
• Commercial and banking affairs, 1917
Volume 8: 1918-1925
• Turkish garrison departs Medina, 1919
• British subsidy to Hijaz, 1918
• Oil and mineral prospects, 1920 etc.
• Intransigence of King Hussein, 1920
• Development plans for Hijaz, 1920
• Plan to rebuild Hijaz Railway, 1922
• Anglo-Hashimite treaty negotiations, 1922-1924
• Wahhabi presence in Hijaz, 1922-1924
• Instability in Hijaz; robbers of pilgrims, 1923
• The fall of Taif, 1924
• Occupation of Mecca by Wahhabi/Nejdi force, 1924
• Abdication of King Hussein, 1924
• The battle for Jeddah, 1924-1925
• Surrender of Hijaz to Sultan of Nejd, 1925
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
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- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Mate,
Interesting bit on the 130th Regt.
I show the commander was LtCol Süleyman Sevket
but I also show Khalil Rushdi Bey who must have replaced Sevket?
So if your right and Sevket was captured and killed at Makka with the 2Bn/130th Regt.
Was wasn't aware that any of this unit was destroyed.
Units of the 130th Regt show up in Turkish documents ,
Shown with HEF
3Bn/130th regt at Bir Raha district- 1,2Bn's/130th regt at El-Ula
shown with 58th Div around Oct 1916-
1-3Bn's/130th Regt- 130th MG Co commander shown as possibly Maj Emin Bey
shown with 23rd Div -
130th Regt from 22nd Div Dec 1917
shown with the 45th Div (not date given)
3Bn/141st Regt formed from ?Bn/130th Regt
Cheers
S.B
Interesting bit on the 130th Regt.
I show the commander was LtCol Süleyman Sevket
but I also show Khalil Rushdi Bey who must have replaced Sevket?
So if your right and Sevket was captured and killed at Makka with the 2Bn/130th Regt.
Was wasn't aware that any of this unit was destroyed.
Units of the 130th Regt show up in Turkish documents ,
Shown with HEF
3Bn/130th regt at Bir Raha district- 1,2Bn's/130th regt at El-Ula
shown with 58th Div around Oct 1916-
1-3Bn's/130th Regt- 130th MG Co commander shown as possibly Maj Emin Bey
shown with 23rd Div -
130th Regt from 22nd Div Dec 1917
shown with the 45th Div (not date given)
3Bn/141st Regt formed from ?Bn/130th Regt
Cheers
S.B
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Here in KSA I have only my laptop with me and dependent on what I saved. Other sources, like books or hardcopies, I haven’t
with me. So I must come back to your detail questions later. I can only remember that I was astonished when I read the first time
about the execution of Turkish prisoners in Makka. In the source (which?) it was argued that during the fights a Turkish gunner
have had shelled without intention in the heat of the battle, two times from Jiyad fortress into the Al-Masjid al-Haram. One of the
shots set on fire the black kiswat-ul-kaaba. The winners were so upset about this sacrilege that all surviving captives were killed (!)
I could find only a table with a rough overview about the positioning of the Turkish units and names of a few commanders.
At last, this confirmes the previous comments about the 130th Regiment with parts in Makka and the 58th Division further north.
with me. So I must come back to your detail questions later. I can only remember that I was astonished when I read the first time
about the execution of Turkish prisoners in Makka. In the source (which?) it was argued that during the fights a Turkish gunner
have had shelled without intention in the heat of the battle, two times from Jiyad fortress into the Al-Masjid al-Haram. One of the
shots set on fire the black kiswat-ul-kaaba. The winners were so upset about this sacrilege that all surviving captives were killed (!)
I could find only a table with a rough overview about the positioning of the Turkish units and names of a few commanders.
At last, this confirmes the previous comments about the 130th Regiment with parts in Makka and the 58th Division further north.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
Mate,
No worries its always nice to confirm my sources.
By the way I show these details for the 58th Div
1-3/42nd Regt - 42nd MG Co
1-3/55th Regt - 55th MG Co
1-3/162nd Regt - 40th MG Co
58th Artillery Regt
130th Regt - Oct 1916
Known Regt commanders (dates as shown)
42nd Regt - LtCol Ahmet Nuri Bey (Diriker) 1916 to Maj Ali Saip Bey
55th Regt - LtCol Tevfik 1916 or Maj Tevfik Bey
130th Regt - possibly Khalil Rushdi Bey & Maj Emin Bey
Commander of guards of Holly city Medina LtCol Basri Pasha (Noyan)
58th Artillery Regt - Maj Maruf
Shown Jan 1917
42nd Regt
55th Regt
130th Regt
4Bn/134th Regt
(1-2Bn's/120th Regt ex 22nd Div) of cause this Regt was with the 40th Div at Yeman not 22nd Div?
But my records shown the 39th and 40th Divs were mixed up with sub units all over the place at that time?
39th Div - 1917- 115th Regt 3/116th Regt 117th Regt 3/119th Regt 2/120th Regt
40th Div - 1917- 1&3/118th Regt 1&2/119th Regt 1&3/120th Regt 1&2/116th Regt - 129th Regt ?
Cheers
S.B
No worries its always nice to confirm my sources.
By the way I show these details for the 58th Div
1-3/42nd Regt - 42nd MG Co
1-3/55th Regt - 55th MG Co
1-3/162nd Regt - 40th MG Co
58th Artillery Regt
130th Regt - Oct 1916
Known Regt commanders (dates as shown)
42nd Regt - LtCol Ahmet Nuri Bey (Diriker) 1916 to Maj Ali Saip Bey
55th Regt - LtCol Tevfik 1916 or Maj Tevfik Bey
130th Regt - possibly Khalil Rushdi Bey & Maj Emin Bey
Commander of guards of Holly city Medina LtCol Basri Pasha (Noyan)
58th Artillery Regt - Maj Maruf
Shown Jan 1917
42nd Regt
55th Regt
130th Regt
4Bn/134th Regt
(1-2Bn's/120th Regt ex 22nd Div) of cause this Regt was with the 40th Div at Yeman not 22nd Div?
But my records shown the 39th and 40th Divs were mixed up with sub units all over the place at that time?
39th Div - 1917- 115th Regt 3/116th Regt 117th Regt 3/119th Regt 2/120th Regt
40th Div - 1917- 1&3/118th Regt 1&2/119th Regt 1&3/120th Regt 1&2/116th Regt - 129th Regt ?
Cheers
S.B
Re: TURKISH TRACK IN TA’IF / HEJAZ
.
Detail- and/or Overview-map from `Old´ Ta’if?
I am searching for an overview map from Ta’if with the area around. At the American Geographical Society Library,
Digital Map Collection I found a map with Jeddah and Makka on one sheet (Mecca 1917, Saudi Arabia, sheet 8) But
this Geographical Library don´t offer the next eastern connection card of this area (Taif 1917, Saudi Arabia, sheet 9)
.
Source: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm/sing ... /531/rec/8
Does anyone know other maps or detail drawings from Ta’if during this time period?
(Maybe between 1880 and 1947, because the old city wall were demolished in this year.)
.
Detail- and/or Overview-map from `Old´ Ta’if?
I am searching for an overview map from Ta’if with the area around. At the American Geographical Society Library,
Digital Map Collection I found a map with Jeddah and Makka on one sheet (Mecca 1917, Saudi Arabia, sheet 8) But
this Geographical Library don´t offer the next eastern connection card of this area (Taif 1917, Saudi Arabia, sheet 9)
.
Source: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm/sing ... /531/rec/8
Does anyone know other maps or detail drawings from Ta’if during this time period?
(Maybe between 1880 and 1947, because the old city wall were demolished in this year.)
.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984