Allied units Implicated in War Crimes

[asgatalopt]

It is not a well known fact but retaliation in the wake of the war was terrible: german soldier in british, american and french captivity were denied food, clean water and any necessary drugs for as much as a month, immediately after the war.
This acts were deliberately committed agains german pows.

I have read several witness accounts over the net, also i know that some reputable books talk of an enormous number of casualties, several hundred thousand soldiers, somebody talked about one and half million people.

Also Eisenhower denied crucial food supplies to Germany, starving many civilians to death in some areas.


The mistreatment happened all in army controlled makeshift camps on german and european soil, when in England or Us soldiers were in general treated fairly from most people.

For some reasons some soldiers held captive in England were sent back to continent, where the mistreatments then took place and ceased when they were returned in England.

There are many serious accounts over the net for this.

Soviet cruelty was legendary, for example only one out of ten italian captives reurned alive from Stalin's hands, the rest were marched without food to their deaths or were starved during prisony, denied drugs when ill and so on as usual for the soviet standards.

The survivors were subject to humiliating indoctrinement which was forced to them in exchange to the faint hope to be repatriated.

Some were returned in 1954 -55, just after Stalin extorted from italy some economical benefits in exchange for their souls



:roll:

[lisset]

As has been acknowledged and pointed out.....members of the Allied Armies are implicated in acts which could be considered war crimes , there is nothing new in this .
What is worth rememebering is that when an individual killed a surrendered soldier it was simple murder ....be he wearing an American , a British , a french , a Russian or a German uniform.
War and its expereicnes alters peoples behaviours and attaiudes...what
"seemed" right then or might have been "excused " then often comes back to haunt people in later life .
The incidents noted are not the act of policy , they are the acts of individuals but are none the less crimes , common to this is the punishments handed out often less than would be recieved in a civil court.
( Be that court , American , German British French or Russian.).

Apart from the acts of individuals you have to look at crimes which where directed by what was policy and in this Germany and Russia have no equal.

[lisset]

This will run forever and bo doubt will have no closure.
The bombing of Cologne was not a war crime.
It went down in the pres as being a " thousand bomber raid" , in fact the number of aircraft which bombed was less than that and the total despatched represented the complete Commanad...OTU , HCU a/c the lot.
This raid was not unique major German efforts in B.O.B. were similar , the execution , marking of targets and tactics all similar.
If it was a war crime and all the raids which followed are to be view in a similar light and Harris , Spatz , Churchill etc are to be looked upon as criminals....then the Luftwaffe are in the same dock and their senior Commanders...Goring and his Air fleet Commanders are all in there with them.

Often compared to but certain not the same as the Holocaust.......what is conviently set aside is the simple fact that germany executed their bombing with less resources in a similar manner ......had Similar aircraft and resources been to hand the Luftwaffe would have been sending "thousand heavy bomber raids " to Britain in 1942, 43, 44 , 45.
As it was the V weapons " baby blitz" came instead.
Would you have the launching operators of the V-1 &2 systems set up as war criminals ?
If Bomber Command , The USAF 8th their respective crews and commanders are guilty , then so are all their German oposites be they responsible for sending out V system weapons or individual aircrews on hit and run raids.

[Rob - wssob2]

I have read several witness accounts over the net, also i know that some reputable books talk of an enormous number of casualties, several hundred thousand soldiers, somebody talked about one and half million people.

Also Eisenhower denied crucial food supplies to Germany, starving many civilians to death in some areas.

James Bacque's work on the deliberate starvation of German PWs by Eisenhower - the book Other Losses has been conclusively debunked by historians and academics.

If we're going to have a "sticky post" about Allied war crimes at the top of the page, I would suggest that we "stick" to the charges that contain more historical documentation than wishful conspiracy-theory thinking.

There are several threads about the Eisenhower guilt/Bacque's book already existing and I would be happy to debate this subject on one of them.

- Rob

[David Thompson]

In another thread, Panzermahn wrote:

Hi, i found some good sources for war crimes against Germany and her axis allies in WW2..

Any researcher of war crimes in WW2 should take a lookon this

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7fuen.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 4alli.html

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http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7imgu.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9imhe.html

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http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9leid.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 8pomm.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 5rett.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 8schi.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7sowe.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 5sosw.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7tods.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 0trag.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 1tull.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 0uber.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 1verb.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9volk.html

May you all not only aware of crimes of Germany but also crimes against Germany[/img]

[asgatalopt]

[An off-topic link to a Vietnam war story, posted by asgatalopt, was deleted by the moderator. Four other posts by the same author, touting Bacque's claims, were consolidated and given a thread of their own at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=43792 -- DT.]

[Juha Hujanen]

Some alleged SU war crimes.Source:Alfred M.de Zayas-The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau 1939-1945.

Page 165

Among captured Soviet documents,was a report of Operations No.11 of the staff of the Soviet 26.Division,1 km west of Slastjena,dated 13.7.1941,10:00 A.M.: "The enemy left approximately 400 dead on the battlefield.Some 80 Germans had surrendered and were executed."

A captured report of the commander of a Soviet company,Captain Gediejew,dated 30 August 1941: "...15 wounted men shot."

In the notes of a Soviet medical officer,B.J,who was taken prisone:"All POW's who had belonged to the German Army were executed during the operations near Odessa...In the course of the fierce resistance of the Red Army...from 4 to 6 November 1941 a small group of Germans was teken to prisoner.They were all shot...Near Sevastopol no prosoners were taken.More precisely:prisoners were executed."

The diary entry of a fallen officer (Lieutenant Bonschenko) of the 61.Cavalry Regiment for 24.12.1941:"the 2nd squadron took 3 Fritzes-probably incendiaries.2 of them were killed witout interrogation;1 was send under guard of 2 men to the Division staff.His fate was,however the same."

From the diary of a engineer named Andrejev,who fell near Sevastopol in June 1942:"In a village near Bija Sala the German prisoners were shot.A young fellow was in charge of the executions,and he went about asking who should do the shootings.An older soldier...asked for a machine gun,shouted:'For my family,for my son,for my mother,'and mowed all of them down."

In a battle report of the 109.Armoured brigade,dated 2.7.1942:"From the crews of 2 German tanks we took 2 prisoners.We liquidated the other Hitlerites."

Excerpts from reports of the Partisan Group Polk 13,which were seized by the germans in October 1943:"Losses among enemy prisoners:13 policemen and 2 Germans who were burned in a stable" (5 August 43);"During our raid on the police at Rjassny we killed 6 Germans and took 1 prisoner,who was shot after interrogation" (7 August 43);"On 7 October a German supply columm was ambushed.A cavalryman who accompanied the supply columm was captured and later shot" (8 October 43)."

From the Bureau's extensive documentation on intercepted Soviet radio and wireless messages,the following illustrations are representative.On 6 September 42:"The 3 men will be now be shot...I still need the Fritz F.He should now show me the ditch and the positions.This means we have to wait with this one."

On 7 July 43:"The enemy suffered great losses...We did not take any prisoners...They were all liquidated."

On 17 March 44:"Do you have any prisoners there?-Yes,2 men.I shall interrogate them...I forbit you to shoot them,because i want to see them first.The rest we can take care of here just well." "We took prisoners belonging to the 4.Mountain Infantry Division,Regiment 13,Company 9...You know what we did with them.They will never come to you" "Yesterday you send me 12 men.The guards had to go back,so i had the prisoners shot."

[David Thompson]

This thread is for posting research material, not discussions. The "As ye reap" posts now have a thread of their own at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46973

[Centurion]

Thought that I would post a few incidents that I have read about that (I think) would be considered war crimes;

1. In his book "Thunderbolt", American ace Robert Johnson describes how he obtained his 23rd victory; by shooting a German pilot who was in the act of bailing out. The German fellow had one leg outside the cockpit when the rounds from Johnson's machine guns knocked him back inside. Now, this German was no more of a threat to Johnson than a man floating down on a parachute. Johnson went on to rationalize why he had shot him-because had he not, the German would have certainly gone on to down more allied bombers since the German pilot was "as good as I had ever met. Number 23!"

2. For those of you who have a copy of the book "Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War", look on page 356. This segment relates how a Japanese heavy cruiser ("Nachi") was sunk. The next to the last paragraph below the photopgraph details how, in the original wartime caption, the U.S. strike aircraft "circled down to approximately 20 feet to "make sure that there were absolutely no survivors. Fifteen to twenty oily figures were served with .50 caliber, just to make sure".

3. I recall reading how the famous American submarine commander Mush Mortonand his submarine U.S.S. Wahoo had just sunk a Japanese vessel. I believe that this took place in the evening. Morton surfaced his boat and passed right through the area where the enemy vessel had gone down, and many Japanese were floating in the water. Morton had his manned his deck gun and machine guns as well. As his boat silently cruised through the area, ONE shot rang out. None of Morton's men were hit, and no one knows if they were aimed at (Japanese suicide?). But Morton took this shot to mean that "All bets were off" and opened fire on the Japanese, killing an unknown number. A U-Boat commander (Kapitainleutnant Eck) was shot by the allies after the war for doing EXACTLY the same thing.

4. Battle of the Bismarck Sea, March 1943. A Japanese troop convoy of 11 transports escorted by 8 destroyers was enroute to reinforce the Japanese on the island of New Guinea when it was attacked and torn apart by U.S. Army Air Force aircraft over a period of a few days. All the transports and 4 of the destroyers were sunk. On the last day of this operation, the Japanese survivors were repeatedly bombed and strafed by the American aircraft. The number of Japanese that went INTO the water has been estimated at approximately 5,000. A few hundred made it ashore on New Guinea. The American rationale for the strafing of the survivors has been that had these men made it ashore in New Guinea, they would undoubtedly added to the defense of the Japanese-held area. How 5,000 starving, exhausted men with no weapons, ammunition, or food could have appreciably added to the defense of Japanes-held territory has never been explained...

Incidents like these simply illustrate that men making war on one another is the real crime.

[Kissa]

I would also like to add the Russians using explosive ammunition. I've read many times of the Russian soldiers using exploding rifle ammunition against the Finnish soldiers (probably against the Germans as well), and explosive ammunition was against all the rules of war.

[David Thompson]

Got sources?

[Kissa]

Got sources?

Simo Häyhä (The top Finnish sniper) was hit by an exploding bullet to his jaws in Winter War. Source: Reader's Digest - Tuntematon Sota - ISBN 951-8933-34-0.

A Finnish book called "Jännittävin sotakertomukseni: Miehet Syväriltä kertova by WSOY" which consists of lots of stories written by Finnish veterans also has lots of mentions about the Russian exploding bullets. The book is from 1942.

I also remember lots of mentions from TV programs etc. about the Russians using explosive rifle ammunition.

[Beau sabreur]

Got sources?

If you read "Im Auge des Jägers", written by a german sniper, you will find plenty of information about the use of explosive ammo by the russians. Actually, it was "spotter ammunition" which is used to mark where a shot hit, in order to provide for corrected aimed fire. As a matter of fact the writer mentioned that he started to use a captured Moisin rifle and spotter ammo against the soviets.
Cheers!

[David Thompson]

Major Santiago -- We don't permit repostings here without crediting links or sources. From the section rules:

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

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Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

A substantial section of your post came from "US War Crimes in WWII" by Lt. Col. Gordon "Jack" Mohr, AUS Ret. The article is widely available on the internet from racist and neo-Nazi sites. The text can be read at:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1422
http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C1 ... 703460886/
http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C1 ... 794399476/
http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0053.htm
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20an ... r_II_2.htm

Mohr does not provide footnotes for his articles, and the "Canadian Intelligence Service" he refers to has been characterized as "anti-Semitic (and non-governmental)."
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/ihr-faq-03.html

We don't condone copyright violations or plagiarism here, either. From the section rules:

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For these reasons I have deleted your post. This is a research section of the forum, and we have minimum standards for our posts. Please read the section rules carefully before posting here again. You can find them at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

[Major Santiago]

Thanks

Will go read them there ,
It was forwaded to me by another source.

I figure someone would know about it and let me know.