Fairness and War Crimes Trials Revisited

[Manstein]

Just for interest, the record of clemency at the American Trials at Nuremberg:

The Doctors' Case:

Sentenced to death or imprisonment:

Dr. Karl Brandt - Death
Rudolf Brandt - Death
Dr. Karl Genzken - Life Imprisonment
Wolfram Sievers - Death
Dr. Siegfried Handloser - Life Imprisonment
Dr. Gerhard Rose - Life Imprisonment
Dr. Joachim Mrugowsky - Death
Dr. Oskar Schröder - Life Imprisonment
Dr. Fritz Fischer - Life Imprisonment
Dr. Karl Gebhardt - Death
Dr. Hermann Becker-Freyseng - 20 years imprisonment
Wilhelm Beiglböck - 15 years imprisonment
Dr. Helmut Poppendick - 10 years imprisonment
Dr. Herta Oberheuser - 20 years imprisonment
Dr. Waldemar Hoven - Death

The reality:

All defendants sentenced to death were hanged on June 2, 1948, a better chapter in American justice.

Karl Genzken - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in 1955.
Gerhard Rose - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in 1955
Siegfried Handloser - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, 1951, transferred to hospital, 1953, died 1954.
Oskar Schröder - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, released in 1954.
Fritz Fischer - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in 1954.
Hermann Becker-Freyseng - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in 1952.
Wilhelm Beiglböck - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released on December 15, 1951.
Helmut Poppendick - Released on January 31, 1951.
Herta Oberheuser - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, released in April 1952.

The Milch Case:

Erhard Milch - Life Imprisonment

The reality:

Erhard Milch - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment in 1951, released in 1954.

Justice Case:

Sentenced to terms of imprisonment (counting time served in internment):

Josef Altstötter - 5 years imprisonment
Guenther Jöl - 10 years imprisonment
Ernst Lautz - 10 years imprisonment
Oswald Rothaug - Life Imprisonment
Franz Schlegelberger - Life Imprisonment
Rudolf Oeschey - Life Imprisonment
Curt Rothenberger - 7 years imprisonment
Herbert Klemm - Life Imprisonment
Wilhelm von Ammon - 10 years imprisonment
Wolfgang Mettgenberg - 10 years imprisonment

The reality:

Josef Altstötter - Released in 1950, serving his full time.
Guenther Jöl - Released on January 31, 1951.
Ernst Lautz - Released in January 1951.
Oswald Rothaug - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, released in 1956.
Franz Schlegelberger - Released in 1950 due to health issues.
Rudolf Oeschey - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, released in 1956.
Curt Rothenberger - Released in 1950.
Herbert Klemm - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, released in 1956.
Wilhelm von Ammon - Released on January 31, 1951.
Wolfgang Mettgenberg - Died in prison, 1950.

Concentration Camp Case:

Defendants convicted:

Oswald Pohl - Death
August Frank - Life Imprisonment
Georg Lörner - Death
Heinz-Karl Fanslau - 25 years imprisonment
Hans Lörner - 10 years imprisonment
Erwin Tschentscher - 10 years imprisonment
Max Kiefer - Life Imprisonment
Franz Eirenschmalz - Death.
Karl Sommer - Death.
Hermann Pook - 10 years imprisonment
Johannes Baier - 10 years imprisonment
Hans Hohberg - 10 years imprisonment
Leo Volk - 10 years imprisonment
Karl Mummenthey - Life Imprisonment
Hans Bobermin - 20 years imprisonment

The reality:

Oswald Pohl - Hanged.
August Frank - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in March 1954.
Georg Lörner - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, 1951, released in March 1954.
Heinz-Karl Fanslau - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprsionment, January 1951, released in 1955.
Hans Lörner - Released in January 1951.
Erwin Tschentscher - Released in January 1951.
Max Kiefer - Released in January 1951.
Franz Eirenschmalz - Sentence commuted to 9 years' imprisonment, January 1951, died later that year.
Karl Sommer - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1955.
Hermann Pook - Released in January 1951.
Johannes Baier - Released in January 1951.
Hans Hohberg - Released in January 1951.
Leo Volk - Sentence commuted to 8 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released December 1951.
Karl Mummenthey - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1955.
Hans Bobermin - Released in January 1951.

I will post the rest of the record later.

[Michael Miller]

Wonderfully revealing post, Manstein.

Your thoughts, Einsamer?

Regards,
~ Mike

[stg 44]

Michael that seems to be a pretty inflammatory response there. I thought we wanted to prevent baiting each other here?

[David Thompson]

stg44 -- Though I appreciate your opinion, having followed the posts in this thread, I do not find those of Michael Miller either inflammatory or baiting.

[Scott Smith]

stg44 -- Though I appreciate your opinion, having followed the posts in this thread, I do not find those of Michael Miller either inflammatory or baiting.

Well, how is the Volksgerichtshoff relevant to the USA and the IMT turning over Germans to the Soviets for show-trial? A complete red-herring.


As far as courts acting with restraint, I can hardly see any court, Soviet or otherwise, treading lightly over a conspiracy to kill the Head of State. But as I said, this is hardly relevant to Guderian. Turning over Germans (or deporting their families) to the Soviets was the way that the IMT could play "good-cop/bad-cop" without soiling its own hands.

[Michael Miller]

Scott~

Maybe I didn't think that through too well. Meant to counter Einsamer's argument that the Allies were unrestrained in their prosecution, while the "justice system" of the vanquished indeed knew no restraint (death sentences for anti-Hitler jokes, spreading anti-regime leaflets, listening to the BBC, etc.).

Regards,
~ Mike

[Scott Smith]

Scott~

Maybe I didn't think that through too well. Meant to counter Einsamer's argument that the Allies were unrestrained in their prosecution, while the "justice system" of the vanquished indeed knew no restraint (death sentences for anti-Hitler jokes, spreading anti-regime leaflets, listening to the BBC, etc.).

Thanks for the clarification, Michael.

[Manstein]

Here are some more:

The Flick Case:

Defendants who were convicted (sentences count time in internment):

Friedrich Flick - 7 years imprisonment
Otto Steinbrinck - 5 years imprisonment
Bernhard Weiss - 2 1/2 years imprisonment

The reality:

Friedrich Flick - Released in January 1951.
Otto Steinbrinck - Died in prison in 1949.
Bernhard Weiss - Released in December 1948, serving his full sentence.

The I.G Farben Case:

Defendants who were convicted (sentences count time in internment):

Carl Krauch - 6 years imprisonment
Hermann Schmitz - 4 years imprisonment
Hans Kugler - 1 year imprisonment
Georg von Schnitzler - 5 years imprisonment
Fritz ter Meer - 7 years imprisonment
Otto Ambros - 8 years imprisonment
Ernst Bürgin - 2 years imprisonment
Heinrich Bütefisch - 6 years imprisonment
Paul Häfliger - 2 years imprisonment
Max Ilgner - 3 years imprisonment
Friedrich Jähne - 1 1/2 years imprisonment
Heinrich Oster - 2 years imprisonment
Walter Dürrfeld - 8 years imprisonment

The reality:

Carl Krauch - Released in 1950.
Hermann Schmitz - Released in 1950.
Hans Kugler - Released immediately since his time was considered to be served.
Georg von Schnitzler - Released in 1950.
Fritz ter Meer - Released in 1952.
Otto Ambros - Released in 1952.
Ernst Bürgin - Released shortly after his sentence due to the fact that his time was considered served.
Heinrich Buetefisch - Released in January 1951.
Paul Häfliger - Released shortly after sentencing since his time was considered to be served.
Max Ilgner - Released, 1949.
Friedrich Jaehne - Released immediately since his time was considered to be served.
Heinrich Oster - Released immediately since his time was considered to be served.
Walter Duerrfeld - Released in 1952.

The Hostage Case:

Convicted defendants (Sentences count time in internment):

Wilhelm List - Life Imprisonment
Lothar Rendulic - 20 years imprisonment
Wilhelm Speidel - 20 years imprisonment
Walter Kuntze - Life Imprisonment
Ernst von Leyser - 10 years imprisonment
Helmuth Felmy - 15 years imprisonment
Ernst Dehner - 7 years imprisonment
Hubert Lanz - 12 years imprisonment

The reality:

Wilhelm List - Released on December 24, 1952 due to health issues.
Lothar Rendulic - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released December 1951.
Wilhelm Speidel - Released in January 1951.
Walter Kuntze - Released on February 10, 1953 due to health issues.
Ernst von Leyser - Released in January 1951.
Helmuth Felmy - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released 1952.
Ernst Dehner - Released in 1950.
Hubert Lanz - Released in January 1951.

The RuSHA Case:

Convicted defendants:

Ulrich Greifelt - Life Imprisonment
Rudolf Creutz - 15 years imprisonment
Konrad Meyer - Time Served
Otto Schwarzenberger - Time Served
Herbert Huebner - 15 years imprisonment
Werner Lorenz - 20 years imprisonment
Heinz Brueckner - 15 years imprisonment
Otto Hofmann - 25 years imprisonment
Richard Hildebrandt - 25 years imprisonment
Fritz Schwalm - 10 years imprisonment
Max Sollmann - Time Served
Gregor Ebner - Time Served
Guenther Tesch - Time Served

The reality:

Ulrich Greifelt - Actually served his full sentence, died in prison in 1949.
Rudolf Creutz - Released in 1955.
Herbert Huebner - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in December 1951.
Werner Lorenz - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, released in 1955.
Heinz Brueckner - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released December 1951.
Otto Hofmann - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, released in 1954.
Richard Hildebrandt - Extradited to Poland, hanged by the Poles in 1952.
Fritz Schwalm - Released in January 1951.

Einsatzgruppen Case:

Convicted Defendants:

Otto Ohlendorf - Death.
Heinz Jost - Life Imprisonment
Erich Naumann - Death.
Franz Alfred Six - 20 years imprisonment
Erwin Schulz - 20 years imprisonment
Walter Blume - Death.
Paul Blobel - Death.
Lothar Fendler - 10 years imprisonment
Eugen Steimle - Death.
Ernst Biberstein - Death.
Willy Seibert - Death.
Gustav Nosske - Life Imprisonment
Adolf Ott - Death.
Waldemar Klingelhöfer - Death.
Eduard Strauch - Death.
Werner Braune - Death.
Walter Hänsch - Death.
Martin Sandberger - Death.
Waldemar von Radetzky - 20 years imprisonment
Felix Rühl - 10 years imprisonment
Heinz Schubert - Death.

The reality:

Otto Ohlendorf - Hanged.
Heinz Jost - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in December 1951.
Erich Naumann - Hanged.
Franz Alfred Six - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released on September 30, 1952.
Erwin Schulz - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, released in 1954.
Walter Blume - Sentence commuted to 25 years imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1953.
Paul Blobel - Hanged.
Lothar Fendler - Sentence commuted to 8 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released December 1951.
Eugen Steimle - Sentence commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, released in 1954.
Ernst Biberstein - Sentence commuted to life imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1958.
Willy Seibert - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1954.
Gustav Nosske - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in December 1951.
Adolf Ott - Sentence commuted to life imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1958.
Waldemar Klingelhöfer - Sentence commuted to life imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1956.
Eduard Strauch - Sentence commuted to life imprisonment, January 1951, subsequently transferred to Belgium, died in prison in 1955.
Werner Braune - Hanged.
Walter Hänsch - Sentence commuted to 15 years' imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1955.
Martin Sandberger - Sentence commuted to life imprisonment, January 1951, released in 1953.
Waldemar von Radetzky - Released in January 1951.
Felix Rühl - Released in January 1951.
Heinz Schubert - Sentence commuted to 10 years' imprisonment, released in 1952.

To be continued...

[Scott Smith]

Manstein, as I've said before, the purpose of the Nuremberg trials was less to prosecute warcrimes than to divide the German people from their former leaders so that they would not resent collective War-Guilt imposed by the Victors (as they had after the First World War). The Allies could afford clemency of individual Germans after the passions had cooled, especially after the Cold War came along and German help and cooperation was needed. However, this still does not address the threat (and probable reality) of deporting Guderian for show-trial, as I said. A few Nazis who got light sentences does not in any way counterbalance those sent to their deaths in Operation Keelhaul and other such noble Allied acts of restraint.

[witness]

Manstein, as I've said before

Of course such an authority ! We all have to heed what he said !

the purpose of the Nuremberg trials was less to prosecute warcrimes than to divide the German people from their former leaders so that they would not resent collective War-Guilt imposed by the Victors (as they had after the First World War).

How Scott Smith arrives to such a truth remains unclear but we of course should be very grateful for the shared revealation !
Now Maybe Smith will bother to explain ? Why it is that "the purpose was less" blah blah "then" ?

David Thompson wrote

If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected

[David Thompson]

Scott - Do you have any recommended texts for the reader who wants to look into the issue of whether "the purpose of the Nuremberg trials was less to prosecute warcrimes than to divide the German people from their former leaders so that they would not resent collective War-Guilt imposed by the Victors (as they had after the First World War)?"

[Scott Smith]

Scott - Do you have any recommended texts for the reader who wants to look into the issue of whether "the purpose of the Nuremberg trials was less to prosecute warcrimes than to divide the German people from their former leaders so that they would not resent collective War-Guilt imposed by the Victors (as they had after the First World War)?"

Well, there is the old classic by F.J.P. Veale, Advance to Barbarism: the development of total warfare from Sarajevo to Hiroshima. And there is Politics, Trials, and Errors by Lord Hankey, an old classic (ca. 1950) which has just been re-released by the Lawbook Exchange for 2002. I plan on reviewing it for Germar Rudolf's journal eventually.

There is quite a bit more that has fallen into the Memory Hole if one cares to look. If I were more organized I would compile bibliographies.

Anyway, these books are available through Amazon to support his site by clicking my links below.

CLICK! CLICK!

Advance to Barbarism (IHR reprint 1993).

Perhaps the most devasting of all the revisionist debunking of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg and the other post-WWII trials. Knowledgeable, lucid English attorney F.J.P. Veale does more than skewer the judicial outrages of the trials of the Germans and their allies: he shows that these trials, by demonizing the defeated and glossing over the crimes of the victors, abolished the traditional code that had ruled European warfare for centuries. In a revisionist refresher course on modern history, Veale draws on precedents from Napoleonic wars on to demonstrate the hollowness and hypocrisy of the Allies' judgement of the Germans. The Gulf War, Bosnia, and Kosovo seem validation for this books' prediction, grounded in its author's analysis of the IMT that Nuremburg would make future warfare worse for non-combatants by dividing warring nations into good (us) and evil (them).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 63-1010561

Hankey, The Right Hon. Lord Politics, Trials and Errors. Reprint of 1950 ed.
2002 Hankey, The Right Hon. Lord. Politics, Trials and Errors. Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, [1950]. xiv, 150 pp. Reprinted 2002 by The Lawbook Exchange, Ltd. ISBN 1-58477-228-X. Cloth. * Lord Hankey [1877-1963] served as secretary of the British cabinet during the Second World War. This allowed him the rare opportunity to observe crucial events at the highest political levels, which he describes in this volume. Hankey opposes the Allied policy of unconditional surrender and desire to hold war crime trials, goals that were announced during the middle years of the war. He takes the position that the former encouraged the Axis to take desperate measures to prolong the war, a policy that led to needless destruction and death, and dismisses the latter as empty propaganda that did nothing for the victims and impeded the peace process. [Emphasis added.]

http://www.ilabdatabase.com/member/deta ... r=67460489

Hope that helps.

[David Thompson]

Scott -- Thanks.

[witness]

Ahd how the above quotations are supposed to support the claim that
"the purpose of the Nuremberg trials was less to prosecute warcrimes than to divide the German people from their former leaders so that they would not resent collective War-Guilt imposed by the Victors (as they had after the First World War)?"

Hankey opposes ...

and

He takes the position

So what ?
There are many of those who "oppose " and "take positions"
Anything to back up this "postion " perhaps ?:)

[Scott Smith]

So what ?
There are many of those who "oppose " and "take positions"
Anything to back up this "postion " perhaps ?

But these are not just anybody. They are the elite dissenters of the establishment--now consigned mostly to the politically-correct Memory Hole. I don't think we will find five copies of Hankey or Veale in the public library along with Lipstadt's curious screed.