Anne Frank and Zvi Nussbaum

[Scott Smith]

They were murdered in their millions by mobile killing squads and in extermination camps.

They were?


Can you prove that Anne Frank and Zvi Nussbaum were murdered?



Topic split from this thread: Churchill´s warcrimes

[David Thompson]

The topic is "Churchill's warcrimes." Please restrict your posts to that subject.

[chalutzim]

They were murdered in their millions by mobile killing squads and in extermination camps.

They were?


Can you prove that Anne Frank and Zvi Nussbaum were murdered?

Sorry, David. But I can't help it.

Scott, why are you so sure that this boy was really Zvi Nussbaum? We discussed it before, and Roberto raised a very important point regarding the date when Stroop's report was complete and the one the alleged Zvi claims to be arrested and sent to Belsen. And Anne died with typhus because she was too weakened for being deliberately starved. It's murder for me.

[tonyh]

Doesn't Zvi say he was the Ghetto boy?

Tony

[Roberto]

They were murdered in their millions by mobile killing squads and in extermination camps.

They were?


Can you prove that Anne Frank and Zvi Nussbaum were murdered?

Zvi Nussbaum survived, and the circumstances that led to Anne Frank's death can be considered murder in the sense of a "she's likely to die and I couldn't care less if she does" attitude. But neither of them was a victim of either mobile killing squads or extermination camps. In respect to the people murdered by or in either, we may have another look at the existing documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence, and Smith may once more make a bloody fool out of himself trying to find an answer to my questions that doesn't damage his articles of faith.

[Roberto]

Doesn't Zvi say he was the Ghetto boy?

Tony

He did, and there's evidence suggesting that his assertion is a self-promoting lie.

For details see the thread

Little boy with his hands in the air
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... e2970279ec

Isn't it funny that, in this case where we may have real, demonstrable "survivor lie", our "Revisionist" truth-seekers are not exactly eager to talk about it?

[RACPISA]

If Zvi is really the boy with his hands in the air, does he get money every time that photo is shown in books or on a TV special?

[Roberto]

This is my post of Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:45 pm on the thread

Little boy with his hands in the air
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... c&start=15

where I questioned whether Nussbaum is indeed identical with the "little ghetto boy", as he claims:

Well, heres a question for everyone here. What reason would the nazis have for keeping this boy alive, if was supposed to be sent to an extermination camp for liquidation?

1) The nazis might not have been ready to accomodate every Jew in extermination camps, and therefore he might have been "kept alive" until such time as they could "process" him.

2) He might have had value to the nazis as a laborer in the ghetto, until they decided to liquidate.

3) He might have had a contageous disease, and the nazis did not want to move him to a camp and thereby risk creating an epidemic there ...and risk destroying the laborer populations in the camp, and the SS guards, doctors, etc. as well.

There are plenty of reasons

The boy may have convinced the selecting bodies at Auschwitz-Birkenau or Majdanek that he possessed some valuable skill - e.g. that he was an expert shoemaker -, or he managed to flee along the way, or the need for slave labor was so bad at the time of his arrival at either place that selection standards were relaxed. Explanations 1) and 3) of the above I consider improbable, 2) the most likely. The boy may also have been of use to Dr. Mengele or some other enlightened scientist for medical experiments. He may yet have become one of the comparatively lucky "VIPs" who were kept as bargaining chips at Bergen-Belsen.

From David Irving's website:

On May 28, 1982 the New York Times quoted Dr Tsvi C Nussbaum, a physician living in Rockland County in upstate New York, USA, as claiming to be the then seven-year old youngster. He recalled that there had been persistent rumours that the Nazis were planning to exchange Jews for German citizens living abroad. Nussbaum and other Warsaw Jews thereupon emerged from their hiding places and surrendered to the Nazis. Their names were indeed, he said, put on a "Palestine list", and he was sent to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in Germany, from which he was liberated by British troops in 1945. He spent the next eight years in what became the state of Israel, and emigrated to New York as a doctor in 1953. "I remember there was a soldier in front of me," he told the newspaper, recalling the picture, "and he ordered me to raise my hands." After his uncle intervened, he was allowed to rejoin his family.
The discovery that the boy was not liquidated, as had been popularly believed, caused outrage and consternation among holocaust scholars who were convinced, said the New York Times, that "the symbolic power of the picture would be diminished were the boy shown to have survived." These historians had long considered the picture "a sort of sacred document," added the newspaper. Dr Lucjan Dobroszycki, of New York's well-known Yivo Institute of European Jewish History, echoed this, proclaiming that this picture of "the most dramatic event of the holocaust" required "a greater level of responsibility from historians than amost any other." "It is too holy," he added, to let people do with it what they want." Nussbaum was shocked at this unexpected reaction to his survival: "I never realised that everyone puts the entire weight of six million Jews on this photograph," he said. "To me it looked like an incident in which I was involved -- and that was it."

Source of quote:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Wa ... wPic1.html

From what my dear True Believers would call a "Holosite":

This photo has come to symbolize the suffering of the entire Jewish people during the Holocaust. Who was this little boy? Did he survive the War?

After the war the photograph appeared in files, exhibitions, magazines, books, newspaper articles on the Holocaust and television documentary programs. Over one million children under the age of sixteen died in the Holocaust - plucked from their homes and stripped of their childhoods, they lived and died during the dark years of the Holocaust and were victims of the Nazi regime.

Some estimates range as high as 1.5 million murdered children. This figure includes more than 1.2 million Jewish children, tens of thousands of Gypsy children and thousands of institutionalized handicapped children who were murdered under Nazi rule in Germany and occupied Europe.

And millions of people believed that the frightened little boy of this poignant photograph was murdered, too. As Washington Post commented:" The photograph goes right to the heart - no doubt the boy, like millions of other Jews, were killed by the Nazis ..."

But after several decades the boy was found - Tsvi C. Nussbaum, a physician living in Rockland County in upstate New York, USA, told that he was the then seven-year old little boy. He recalled how he and his aunt were arrested in front of a Warsaw hotel, where Jews with foreign passports had gathered because they thought it could provide a way to escape Poland.

He remembered the date, July 13, 1943, and how he was told to put his hands up."I remember there was a soldier in front of me," he told the newspaper, recalling the picture, "and he ordered me to raise my hands."

Nussbaum’s story is an especially tragic one, most notably because his parents had immigrated to then Palestine in 1935. But they found life too difficult there, and returned to the town of Sandomierz, Poland, in 1939. Nussbaum’s parents were murdered before the Jews were deported, and his brother simply disappeared. He and his aunt went to Warsaw and managed to live there as gentiles for over a year. When caught, they were deported to the death camp, Bergen-Belsen.

After his liberation by British troops in 1945 Nussbaum went to Palestine and spent the next eight years in what became the state of Israel. Then in 1953 he went to America. He arrived not knowing a word of English, and excelled in science. He went to medical school, and became an ear, nose, and throat specialist, largely motivated by the desire to help his uncle, who has a speech defect as a result of a larynx damaged in the concentration camps.

He got married, and had four daughters, and two grandchildren. He kept that famous photograph, with another one of himself at that age, on the wall of his waiting room.

But what happened to the German soldier on the right with the gun? Who was he?

Today we know his fate, too: His name was Josef Blösche, a vicious and sadistic man known in the Ghetto as "Frankenstein". After the war he fled but was recognized in Soviet zone of Germany by survivors from the Ghetto, put on trial and convicted of murder. He was executed for his crimes ...

Source of quote:

http://auschwitz.dk/story/id2.htm

The account on this site seems somewhat dubious. If, as Nussbaum is said to have referred, he was captured on 13 July 1943, how would the famous photograph featuring him have entered a report referring to an operation that ended on 16 May 1943? The possibility that Stroop may have used a photograph taken at a later stage for the pictorial part of his report is to be ruled out due to the fact that Stroop seems to have submitted his report on 18 May 1943:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... 074.htm.en

He responded to a few questions by his superior, which were obviously related to the report, on 24 May 1943:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... 075.htm.en

This leaves the following possibilities:

1. Nussbaum's account is inaccurately rendered on the auschwitz.dk site;

2. Nussbaum's recollection of the date on which he was captured is inaccurate;

3. Nussbaum, contrary to his pretensions, is/was not the boy on the picture in Stroop's report.

[ChristopherPerrien]

So the "poster boy" for the Holocaust lived! Great!

Yes I can imagine imagine the horror of holocaust scholars at their
"faux pas' " , but that is just a very funny error if you ask me. I don't think it denies the holocaust except for this one person, however, it does give "bad revisionists " more ammo.

Personally , I would say there is a much better chance of a 7 year old confusing a date , than a person forgetting what he looked like.

[Roberto]

So the "poster boy" for the Holocaust lived! Great!

Yes I can imagine imagine the horror of holocaust scholars at their
"faux pas' " , but that is just a very funny error if you ask me. I don't think it denies the holocaust except for this one person, however, it does give "bad revisionists " more ammo.

Personally, I would say there is a much better chance of a 7 year old confusing a date , than a person forgetting what he looked like.

It's not just the date. The circumstances under which Nussbaum stated to have been captured were entirely different from those portrayed in the picture. The picture is stated by Stroop to portray Jews "forcibly taken out of bunkers" ("Mit Gewalt aus Bunkern hervorgeholt") during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Nussbaum, depending on which version you prefer,

recalled that there had been persistent rumours that the Nazis were planning to exchange Jews for German citizens living abroad. Nussbaum and other Warsaw Jews thereupon emerged from their hiding places and surrendered to the Nazis

or

recalled how he and his aunt were arrested in front of a Warsaw hotel, where Jews with foreign passports had gathered because they thought it could provide a way to escape Poland

Neither version matches the photograph’s caption, which is compatible with the operation during which the photograph was taken, the captives' bedraggled aspect and the place they can be seen coming from.



So my suspicion is that Nussbaum placed himself in the famous picture against better knowledge, for the good it would do his personal image.

[ChristopherPerrien]

[/quote]So my suspicion is that Nussbaum placed himself in the famous picture against better knowledge, for the good it would do his personal image.[quote]

Okay, but I fail to see what good it would do for his image, I would think this this would earn him a whole lot of anger and wrath in his own community, religion, and even family , given how "seriously" Hebrews look at holocaust denial. And I really doubt if any revisionists mailed a "Jew" a check for aiding their cause.

If my arguments seems amatuerish, feel free to say so. I heard of this photograph and the boy years ago , but until today I never gave it much notice. At least I know more now than I did

[David Thompson]

Chris -- I don't think Nussbaum's story has as much to do with "revisionists" as it does with the marvellously sublime, bestial, self-sacrificing, vain, glorious and ridiculous extremes encountered in the range of documented human behavior over time. When I was younger I called it "hopelessly human weirdness."

[Scott Smith]

Sorry, David. But I can't help it.

Scott, why are you so sure that this boy was really Zvi Nussbaum? We discussed it before, and Roberto raised a very important point regarding the date when Stroop's report was complete and the one the alleged Zvi claims to be arrested and sent to Belsen.

Well, like you I wasn't at the peephole watching the gassings, nor was I there at the Ghetto and knew the young Zvi Nussbaum to tell you.

But as I recall from the previous thread on the Ghetto Boy, Roberto couldn't prove that Dr. Nussbaum was not the boy in the photo. that doesn't mean he is but it means that he probably is because there has been plenty of time to establish whether Nussbaum is a liar.

It is merely a lesson in not going beyond your facts--which is a very human thing to do--be it photographic or otherwise. For those who saw the Ghetto Boy as poignant proof that the Germans tried to kill all the Jews the revelation that they forgot about the Little Ghetto Boy is not comforting.

The rest of us wish Dr. Nussbaum well. He certainly lived through "interesting times," as the Chinese say.

[Scott Smith]

If Zvi is really the boy with his hands in the air, does he get money every time that photo is shown in books or on a TV special?

No, because the photograph is a historical document taken by the Nazis and not by a private photographer for commercial reasons without his consent. Also, newsphotos are public anyway unless copyrighted. It has been too long since I worked in TV to really answer mass-media legal questions like this. Of course, if he did sue someone and did the Holocaust book and lecture-circuit like Mr. Wiesel, then Dr. Nussbaum could make a killing and maybe get a Nobel Peace Prize as well. And why not? I don't doubt a lot of lawyers have slipped their business cards underneath Dr. Zvi's door. But I somehow doubt that Dr. Nussbaum would say hateful things about the German people the way Mr. Wiesel has.

[Scott Smith]

Chris -- I don't think Nussbaum's story has as much to do with "revisionists" as it does with the marvellously sublime, bestial, self-sacrificing, vain, glorious and ridiculous extremes encountered in the range of documented human behavior over time. When I was younger I called it "hopelessly human weirdness."

Why, whatever do you mean?


I think Finkelstein called it the "Holocaust Industry."