Ustachas vs Chetniks
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Benoit Douville
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Ustachas vs Chetniks
the overall number of casualties in Yugoslavia was 1 706 000 (10 % cent of the overall population) of which 304 540 were soldiers and 1 401 460 civilians during World War II. The rivality between the Ustachas who were from Croatia under Ante Pavelic and the Chetniks under Draza Mihailovic reach a high level of crimes on both sides but who were the worst? I just hope this topic don't turn into flame war between members from former Yugoslavia. I am just looking for facts and numbers.
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David Thompson
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Benoit -- You said: "The rivality between the Ustachas who were from Croatia under Ante Pavelic and the Chetniks under Draza Mihailovic reach a high level of crimes on both sides but who were the worst? I just hope this topic don't turn into flame war between members from former Yugoslavia. I am just looking for facts and numbers."
You should know better than this. The question "who was the worst" is deliberately provocative, and will almost certainly turn the discussion into the "flame war between members from former Yugoslavia" you say you hope doesn't happen.
If the subject interests you, you have probably read a lot of the past posts in your search for facts and numbers. If you have read the past posts, you must be aware that there are multiple sets of facts and numbers, all of doubtful reliability and all hotly contested.
I hope you have not made a wager over how long it will take this thread to be locked.
You should know better than this. The question "who was the worst" is deliberately provocative, and will almost certainly turn the discussion into the "flame war between members from former Yugoslavia" you say you hope doesn't happen.
If the subject interests you, you have probably read a lot of the past posts in your search for facts and numbers. If you have read the past posts, you must be aware that there are multiple sets of facts and numbers, all of doubtful reliability and all hotly contested.
I hope you have not made a wager over how long it will take this thread to be locked.
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David Thompson
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For those planning posts on this topic, please read the forum policy on atrocity photographs, at:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15945
I don't want to see the usual collection of photographs of severed heads, gouged-out eyes, bushels of eyeballs, battered swollen corpses tied with barbed wire and floating downstream, etc. which this topic almost inevitably generates.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15945
I don't want to see the usual collection of photographs of severed heads, gouged-out eyes, bushels of eyeballs, battered swollen corpses tied with barbed wire and floating downstream, etc. which this topic almost inevitably generates.
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Benoit Douville
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The fact is that cetniks had no military significance,and due to their courage they only killed civilians.In fact I never heard for some "paramilitary organization"(i don't even know how to name them) which only goal was killing children,women and old people.Only chetniks were able to do that.I tryed to find some infos of cetniks battles but never find something,neither one evidence of even one brave act from them.
And I would also want to see numbers of their victims because I am quite sure that at least 99% of them were civilians and it doesn't make any sense in comparison them with organized military group like ustaše.They were like black and white in every aspect
And I would also want to see numbers of their victims because I am quite sure that at least 99% of them were civilians and it doesn't make any sense in comparison them with organized military group like ustaše.They were like black and white in every aspect
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K.Kocjancic
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If by worst you mean who committed the most atrocities against civilians, then the answer is obvious, the Ustashe. I can't comprehend how any unbiased person can possibly give any other answer.
This is not to say the Chetniks didn't commit two or three war crimes. They did. But the difference between them and the Ustashe is that the crimes committed by Chetniks were committed by rogue elements acting without the permission of their leaders. The crimes committed by the Ustashe on the other hand were actually ORDERED by the leaders! So really there is no comparisson. Number of civilians killed by Ustashas number around 750,000 (I've seen figures ranging from 30,000 to 1.5 million but the 750,000 figure is agreed upon by most neutral historians).
As for the military contributions Chetniks/Ustashe made to their respective sides, the Ustashe sent volunteers to the eastern front and also fought against both Chetniks and Partizans, although the vast majority of people they killed were Serbian civilians. I would say their contributiton to the Nazi war effort was negligible. The Chetniks were fighting both the Germans and the Partizans at once. There were also cases when the Chetniks fought together with Germans against the Partizans. There were several cases where the Chetniks would be preparing to engage the Germans, when suddenly the Partizans would attack from behind, and then quickly withdraw, leaving the Chetniks in dissarray with Germans coming at them. Their best-known accomplishment was the rescue of over 500 American airmen who were downed in their territory. In one case, an American pilot was downed by the Germans, and the local villagers hid him, and the Nazis came and said we know he's hiding here, give him up. But the villagers wouldn't and so several civilians were executed. The pilot survived and went home.
I have a book which details many specific battles involving Chetniks which I will post maybe later.
This is not to say the Chetniks didn't commit two or three war crimes. They did. But the difference between them and the Ustashe is that the crimes committed by Chetniks were committed by rogue elements acting without the permission of their leaders. The crimes committed by the Ustashe on the other hand were actually ORDERED by the leaders! So really there is no comparisson. Number of civilians killed by Ustashas number around 750,000 (I've seen figures ranging from 30,000 to 1.5 million but the 750,000 figure is agreed upon by most neutral historians).
As for the military contributions Chetniks/Ustashe made to their respective sides, the Ustashe sent volunteers to the eastern front and also fought against both Chetniks and Partizans, although the vast majority of people they killed were Serbian civilians. I would say their contributiton to the Nazi war effort was negligible. The Chetniks were fighting both the Germans and the Partizans at once. There were also cases when the Chetniks fought together with Germans against the Partizans. There were several cases where the Chetniks would be preparing to engage the Germans, when suddenly the Partizans would attack from behind, and then quickly withdraw, leaving the Chetniks in dissarray with Germans coming at them. Their best-known accomplishment was the rescue of over 500 American airmen who were downed in their territory. In one case, an American pilot was downed by the Germans, and the local villagers hid him, and the Nazis came and said we know he's hiding here, give him up. But the villagers wouldn't and so several civilians were executed. The pilot survived and went home.
I have a book which details many specific battles involving Chetniks which I will post maybe later.
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Benoit Douville
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Benoit Douville wrote:
http://www.hr/darko/etf/bul2.html
Already in 1954 two US investigators of the US Bureau of Census, Mayers and Campbell had arrived to a number of 1067000 deaths.
Furthermore when the government of the Federal Republic of Germany for the purpose of paying reparations asked the Yugoslav government the number of casualties, it received as an answer in 1964 (albeit not including collaborators and foreigners): 596293 deaths.
This matter has already been ampled discussed on this forum showing that this numbers are a utter nonsense, not to say a lie. The more recent investigation was carried on by Bogoljub Kozovic, a Serbian historian, and Vladimir Zerjavic, a Croat one. The first arrived to a total of 1014000 casualities. His work was published in 1985. Somewhat later on and independently, in 1989, the latter concluded that the number of casualties due to war in Yugoslavia were 1027000. Seethe overall number of casualties in Yugoslavia was 1 706 000 (10 % cent of the overall population) of which 304 540 were soldiers and 1 401 460 civilians during World War II.
http://www.hr/darko/etf/bul2.html
Already in 1954 two US investigators of the US Bureau of Census, Mayers and Campbell had arrived to a number of 1067000 deaths.
Furthermore when the government of the Federal Republic of Germany for the purpose of paying reparations asked the Yugoslav government the number of casualties, it received as an answer in 1964 (albeit not including collaborators and foreigners): 596293 deaths.
Kocjo,that there was many chetniks in Slovenia during WW2 and that there are many today I am aware but I am talking abot main chetnik organization in Dalmacija under Djujic and in Bosnia under mihajlovic and what were they doing,not about some marginal groups in Slovenia or in Colorado 
Also when you said that they done no crime there ,well what was then purpose of their organization there and what were they doing,building bridges and roads ???
And Benoit,you have to be more precise when asking about numbers of ustashi victims.Because do you consider Black legion,bosnia militia,domobrane,handjare and their crimes under Ustashis or no.
And when colorado cetnik says that chetniks collaborated with partizans and Germans that just confirms that they had no principles and that their only goal was killing civilians and rescuing their own lives what we can comfirmed when knowing about their numerous aproaching to partizans at the end of WW2
Also when you said that they done no crime there ,well what was then purpose of their organization there and what were they doing,building bridges and roads ???And Benoit,you have to be more precise when asking about numbers of ustashi victims.Because do you consider Black legion,bosnia militia,domobrane,handjare and their crimes under Ustashis or no.
And when colorado cetnik says that chetniks collaborated with partizans and Germans that just confirms that they had no principles and that their only goal was killing civilians and rescuing their own lives what we can comfirmed when knowing about their numerous aproaching to partizans at the end of WW2
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K.Kocjancic
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Krilnik, it's good to see yet another daydreaming Croat remembering past Ustasha "glories". When you say rubbish like "The Chetniks had no principles" you are actually being humorous without the intent of being humorous. The Chetniks, who were Serbian nationalists, saw as much threat in the Communist Partisans as they did in the invading Germans. Whilst your beloved Ustashe, on the other hand, took pride in slaughtering large numbers of civillians just for the sake of killing Serbs, whom you have despised for a long, long time. Don't worry, all your heroes are rotting/burning in hell. You will too. It's the fate of all Ustashophiles.
Regards,
Sokol
Regards,
Sokol
Sokole is that a threat really there is no need to get upset when I am just writing what all world know,that the chetniks were nothing but the chicken shits.Looks like true hurts,especially some underdeveloped people who have problems with reception of reality a?
Here is one picture of intimidate chetnik maybe this is you?
http://www.srpskimania.de/mania/ravnagora2003/16.jpg
really there is no need to get upset when I am just writing what all world know,that the chetniks were nothing but the chicken shits.Looks like true hurts,especially some underdeveloped people who have problems with reception of reality a?Here is one picture of intimidate
chetnik maybe this is you?http://www.srpskimania.de/mania/ravnagora2003/16.jpg
