Poland and Ukraine resolve massacre row

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Marcus
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Poland and Ukraine resolve massacre row

#1

Post by Marcus » 11 Jul 2003, 19:37

Polish President Alexander Kwasniewski has been visiting Ukraine for the first-ever memorial ceremony to mark the anniversary of a notorious massacre during World War II.
The visit follows a vote on Thursday, in which the two countries' parliaments approved a declaration aimed at resolving the highly sensitive dispute.
The massacres took place in 1943 and 1944 in Volyn (Wolynia) - which was then part of Poland - when nationalists on both sides killed tens of thousands of civilians.
The BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw says Mr Kwasniewski, and his Ukrainian counterpart Leonid Kuchma, will be hoping the event will allow the countries to get over their painful past and look toward a brighter future.
Historians estimate that up to 100,000 Poles were killed by Ukrainian nationalists in the ethnic conflict.
As many as 20,000 Ukrainians are believed to have died in revenge attacks.
Members of the Ukrainian parliament, however, complained that the text of the declaration did not adequately acknowledge the Ukrainian deaths.
The declaration, which was drafted by a Polish-Ukrainian committee, described the event as a tragedy of the Polish people in its very first sentence.
That upset many Ukrainian parliamentarians, who noted that their country's victims did not get a mention until the end of a paragraph.
The parliament went into recess while the speaker telephoned his Polish counterpart in an unsuccessful bid to amend the text.
In the event 227 members voted for the declaration, one more than the absolute majority needed for it to pass.
The Polish parliament passed the declaration, by 323 votes to 35.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3057243.stm

/Marcus

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Starinov
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#2

Post by Starinov » 11 Jul 2003, 21:50

I wish peace to all people of good will. I hope thart this meeting between the two presidents will change the way Poles and Ukrainians feel toward each other...


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Yevgeniy B.
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answer

#3

Post by Yevgeniy B. » 11 Jul 2003, 23:01

me too

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Benoit Douville
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#4

Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Jul 2003, 03:00

The truth is that the tragedy of Volhynia is almost unknow in the western world and that is sad too. The Ukrainian genocide against the Poles was perpetrated methodically and globally in 1943 throughout all the regions of Volhynia, from East to West, and was clearly guided by the top Ukrainian Nationalist leader.
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 12 Jul 2003, 18:09, edited 1 time in total.

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#5

Post by VeleV » 12 Jul 2003, 06:26

One of my best friends here is Ukrainian and we always talk about 'our' past - very sad how once nations of brothers could spill so much blood against each other!

Everytime we have some drinks we drink to Slavic Unity.

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PolAntek
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#6

Post by PolAntek » 12 Jul 2003, 08:55

Starinov wrote:I wish peace to all people of good will. I hope thart this meeting between the two presidents will change the way Poles and Ukrainians feel toward each other...
Amen

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Szczerbiec
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#7

Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003, 16:38

It's true that the UPA was commiting such atrocities as nailing polish children's tongues to wooden tables in front of their parents, or cutting Poles attached to a wooden 2x4 with a saw piece by piece, starting from the feet..........

...........However the article is untruthful.
[...]when nationalists on both sides killed tens of thousands of civilians.
As many as 20,000 Ukrainians are believed to have died in revenge attacks.
What nationalists of both sides? What revenge attacks?
We were fighting against the UPA, a group of savage Ukrainians, that have been promised by chancellor Hitler a free Ukraine, free of bolshevism.

Next thing they say is that fighting against the Wehrmacht in 1939 was a crime!

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#8

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003, 18:57

Szczerbiec wrote:It's true that the UPA was commiting such atrocities as nailing polish children's tongues to wooden tables in front of their parents, or cutting Poles attached to a wooden 2x4 with a saw piece by piece, starting from the feet..........

...........However the article is untruthful.
[...]when nationalists on both sides killed tens of thousands of civilians.
As many as 20,000 Ukrainians are believed to have died in revenge attacks.
What nationalists of both sides? What revenge attacks?
We were fighting against the UPA, a group of savage Ukrainians, that have been promised by chancellor Hitler a free Ukraine, free of bolshevism.

Next thing they say is that fighting against the Wehrmacht in 1939 was a crime!
where there represal attacks by AK, or people whoclaimed that they were AK, it was dicussed here priviously.

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Szczerbiec
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#9

Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003, 20:43

Was it discussed previously? Please give me the link. The AK would never do such things as attack innocent civilians or "clean" the remaining lives of concentration camps. If it happened by people claiming to be in the AK, it is another case and government officials should never be mixed into this story.

I know however is that Ukraine recently considers the UPA as patriotic heroes (there are series of protests in front of consulates and embassies of Ukraine in Poland about this......), and the president of Poland excuses himself here and there in the name of Poland about events that are questionnable (i.e. Jedwabne, a case that emerged from Gross in his book "The neighbours". Gross is not a historian, but (if I am not mistaking) a journalist, and his book is controversial because there is no valuable proof).

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#10

Post by Musashi » 12 Jul 2003, 21:05

Szczerbiec,
Oleg is right, there were revenge AK's attacks. Don't you watch the television? Maybe you don't want to admit that. However it is a true. You should watch TV POLONIA. Its broadcasted by satellite and its available in Canada. But you know it.....
BTW
The sources are quite other:
Polish victims: 60000-100000 or little above 100000
Ukrainian victims: 2000-2500 (Polish version)
12000 (Ukrainian version)
20000 (another Ukrainian version)

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Szczerbiec
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#11

Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003, 21:31

TV is not a source for me, sorry. This is why I am not watching it since 1995 (excepted one time in 2002 when they interviewed me as a the representant of the polish youh of Canada...... They cut all of the most important of the interview :? )

Since your source is TV Polonia, tell me what they said, based on what concrete fact, who was interviewed, etc.

If you say that the AK killed these Ukrainians, tell me who gave out such orders of doing so in London? Give me names of AK-ers that performed such actions and the place they occured.

You see, I was in TV Polonia. I could of said whatever I wished without any sources and the viewers would trust what I said. This is why I ask you kindly for sources.

Thank you.

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#12

Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003, 21:58

http://wszechpolacy.pl/_mw/+czytaj_star ... =wszystkie

This is my translation, excuse me for my english:

"We are here for the 14-th time. This time, to remember the 60th of a massacre, performed by members of the OUN and the UPA on our nation that has lived in south-eastern Poland" - said Maciej Twaróg in a demonstration in front of the consulate of Ukraine in Cracow.

"Our president did not have the courage to say that this was a genocide - planned and realised effectively. We know how they murdered: our eyes were removed from our heads, they sliced us with axes, put forks in our bodies, attached us to their horses and watched as our arms and legs seperarted from the rest of our body, they burned us alive and attached our children with sharp metal cords.

Mixed families were not saved: Ukrainians on order had to kill their polish wives and husbands

Now, some Ukrainians demand that these people, who performed such atrocities, should be considered as national heroes.

We want a good Polish-Ukrainian relation and cooperation, but we do not want unity by falsifying history.
"
[...]


(PSZ) - Dziennik Polski

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Szczerbiec
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#13

Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003, 22:34

Here are some sources, unfortunately all in polish:

http://www.genocide-pl.prv.pl/(English version avail.)
http://www.kki.krakow.pl/piojar/polemik ... ss/ss.html
http://www.kki.krakow.pl/piojar/polemik ... fiary.html
http://www.lemkounion.republika.pl/

Image
Image
Image

Now tell me where are the pictures of the Ukrainians murdered? You don't want to show the wolves in their uniforms?

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#14

Post by VeleV » 12 Jul 2003, 22:43

Past is past my friend.
Can I ask nicely are you by any chance 'OKOPIARZ'?
hihihi

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#15

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003, 22:46

you seem to be trying to break through open door -nobody denies what was done to Poles - however there were rerislas attacks.
From the report, written by NKVD advisor, attached to Ministry of National Security of Poland, to Peoples Commissar of Internal Affairs of USSR – in regards to killings of Ukrainian Population by detachment of AK. -Warsaw June 14th 1945

On the June 6th, detachment of podporudchik (second lieutenant) Cibulskiy, aka Sokol, conducted pogrom over Ukrainian population in the village of Vezhhovina (13 km south-west of city of Helm). Sokol’s detachment, numbering over 200 bayonets, dressed in AL uniforms, armed with light and medium machineguns, submachine guns and rifles, came into the village on foot.

Ukrainian population, who took the detachment, for an AL unit coming from the front line, met it with flowers and breadbaskets. AK went through the village, left their supply column in the near forest, then came back, and began head-by-head killing of the Ukrainians. In total 202 people were killed, including infants, adolescents, men and women of all ages. Civilians were killed, with firearms, shovels, mattocks, axes, knives. Women were decapitated, men ,before being killed, were tortured with red-hot iron rods. Bandits took 65 heads of cattle and some things from the houses of the people they killed, went in the direction of Selec.
the whole report in Russian was posted by me here http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... &start=120

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