Junkers Ju-290 to Manchuria 1944

[Simon Gunson]

dear DrG

I will definitely track down the KG200 book for you. As for the Bf-110 this was reference to a flight before Hitler attacked Russia which I read about in the Seventies. It may well have made several hops though I do recall reading that it was stripped down for extra fuel tanks. I simply have no more information about this. I don't blame you in the least if you don't accept that one. I can't possibly recall the Bf-110 reference source now 25 years on.

As for the Me-264 which were you referring to ?
Aircraft V1, V2 or V3 ?
I believe the V1 aircraft had the serial RE+EN and it's pilot was Heinz Bauer, Hitler's personal pilot. As to Hitler's motives author William Stevenson reported in his book the Bormann Brotherhood that Maj Gen Monkhe was negotiating capitulation of Northern Germany and Denmark to Soviet forces in return for Hitler's escape into exile in Japan.

I wondered if you had any response to three Ju-290-A9 aircraft serials
#10182 thru #10184 as these were the core topic ?

[Simon Gunson]

My reference to the Italians was that KG200 operation of the aircraft after September 1943 might explain the absence of Italian records of post 43 flights by Savoia aircraft...

I was not implying that the Italians kept no records of their own flights.
One should not take what I said out of context.

[Jon G.]

The subject of long-range flights, and German-Japanese cooperation was discussed in some detail a little while back on the old Panzerforum.

http://pub222.ezboard.com/fpanzer4520fr ... =294.topic

[daveh]

a new book on KG200

KG 200 The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas & Barry Ketley

from Hikoki publications

I've not seen this one but have found other Hikoki publications very well researched.

I'd be interested in hearing if this does include anything further on these long range flghts

[DrG]

I will definitely track down the KG200 book for you.

Thank you.

As for the Me-264 which were you referring to ?
Aircraft V1, V2 or V3 ?

Given that the V3 was never completed and the V2 never flew before being destroyed by a bombing in 1943... I hand't many choices.

[Simon Gunson]

I have further researched my claim that a Bf-110 flew to Manchuria and discovered from the "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft" volume 11, that the Messerschmitt Me-261 "designed for record-breaking nonstop flights from Berlin to Tokyo" looked like a Bf-110 on steroids, hence my confusion. Whilst I made some errors in good faith I was essentially correct.

I had previously seen it illustrated elsewhere as the aircraft that flew to Manchuria and registered it as a Bf-110/Me-110 type.

The Me-261 developed in 1942 had a wet wing with deeper section than the Bf-110 and a longer wingspan of 88 feet or nearly 27 metres. It had four DB601 engines clustered in pairs, each pair driving a single propellor through a gearbox. It's wheels unlike the Me-110 twisted on retraction in the style of a Curtis P-40 Tomahawk to lie flush.

Version 1 and Version 2 used pairs of 2,700hp DB606A engines whilst V3 used pairs of DB601 engines. V1 bore the codes BJ+CP. V2 which was captured intact by the Allied advance through Lechfeld in 1944 bore the codes BJ+CQ. Other publications state that the V2 aircraft was destroyed by Allied bombing, but I have seen allied photos of the V2 aircraft.

Once at cruise altitude the pilot would shut down two of it's four engines. The Germans produced a similar engine arrangement for the Heinkel He-177. Today the Soloy corporation in USA produces a similar dual powerpac for Cessna Caravans.

The V3 aircraft with BJ+CR codes had more take-off horsepower than a Douglas DC-4. It's range of 6,850sm was also double that of a standard Ju-290-A5 (3,820sm). It also flew faster than a Ju-290. Only the three former FAG.5 aicraft after conversion for long range KG200 operations.

Presumably these were the aircraft which flew to Manchuria from Odessa to Manchuria before the fall of Stallingrad. Pilots of these Me-261 flights were Karl Bauer and Fritz Wendell. V1 and V2 carried five occupants whilst V3 carried 7 occupants. Clearly at a cruise speed of 250mph (max speed 380mph) it was a long cramped flight.

There is a book simply entitled "KG200" by Peter Stahl translated from German. It has extensive appendicies including copies of logbooks and letters in German, some of which are translated. One cites secret orders Br.B.No 1136/45 to I/KG200 from Fuhrungstab I/Ic for a flight dated 30 April 1945 for Hauptman Braun and Ofw Aufdemkemp to fly a one way flight of a millitary Ju-290 with the codes PJ+PS to Barcelona. Another Ju-290 aircraft with civil markings flew from Czechoslovakia on 26 April
1945. Both these aircraft apparently were turned over to the Spanish government.

Author Peter Stahl devoted only one chapter to Ju-290 flights by KG200, but does refer to Rhodes and landings in Iraq carrying the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammed Amin al Husseini and an Iraqi general staff officer, using the KG200 aircraft A3+HB. Flights by I/KG200 were often on the orders of RHSA also known as the Gestapo.

I would love to hear more from Daveh what his book on KG200 has to say as I am unlikely to see a copy in the near future. As a new member
I would also be interested in reading the past debates in Panzerforum
which Shrek mentioned as these forums throw up obscure sources.

[Simon Gunson]

I should have said

"Only the three former FAG.5 aicraft after conversion for long range KG200 operations"

...had longer ranges than 3,820sm (of the standard Ju-290-A5).

Anybody know the fuel capacity of a standard Ju-290-A5 ?

[Simon Gunson]

First of all I owe everyone an apology for my sloppy sources.

I have learned from David Irving's website that Peter Stahl who wrote about KG200 is infact an Englishman known for selling forged WW2 documents.

Peter Stahl's book and apparently the document annexed in that book about a flight from Horsching (Linz Austria) to Barcelona are likely false aswell.

My information about a Ju-290 from Czechoslovakia to Barcelona comes from a friend in Spain. This flight on 26 April 1945 did take place.

Primary source of Manchuria flight claims identified as Albert Speer

I have just finished reading a book by former Newsweek editor in Berlin after the war James P O'Donnell. He interviewed key characters from Hitler's bunker immediately after the war. O'Donnell made a point of tracing 250 survivors of Hitler's Bunker after the war and interviewed 100 of the most important ones.

He recounted in his book "The Berlin Bunker" pub 1979, ISBN 0-340-04402-8 interviews with Reichsminister Albert Speer and Hitler's pilot Hans Baur. He reported Baur being coy about the Ju-390 aircraft's ability to fly Hitler away from Berlin, but Baur also said that right up to the last day at Berlin he could have flown the Furher "anywhere in the world".

In his book O'Donnell quotes former Reichsminister Albert Speer whom he interviewed after the war (p.251) saying that Baur was fascinated with Rechlin projects and especially the Ju-390.

Speer also said:
"a Luftwaffe test pilot had flown a Ju-390 non-stop from Germany to Japan over the polar route. Baur would have known of this secret flight..."


It should not be hard to identify the test pilot as there were not that many of them. Here is a list of those whom I have identified... Many will no longer be with us but may have imparted the truth to their families. Have we any members in Germany that would like to research these people ?

Hauptmann Behrens, Rechlin E2
Stabs-Ing. Thoenes, Rechlin E2
Stabs-Ing. H. Böttcher, Rechlin E2
Stabs-Ing. Neidthard, Rechlin E2
Dipl.-Ing. Th. Goedicke, Rechlin E2
Flugzeugführer Rautenhaus, Blohm & Voss
Flugzeugführer Hilleke, Blohm & Voss
Stabs-Ing. Bader, Rechlin E2
Flugkapitän Rodig, Blohm & Voss
Flugzeugbaumeister Malz, RLM-GL/C-E2
Stab-Ing. Czolbe, RLM-GL/C-E2
Lt. Scheidhauer, Sonderkommando Horten
Flugbaumeister Mehlhorn, Focke-WuIf
Flugzeugführer Bartsch, Focke-WuIf
Prof. Kurt Tank, Focke-WuIf
Dr. Ing. Doetsch, DVL
Ing. H. Schuhmacher, DVL
Dr. med. H. Wiesehöfer, DVL
Dipl.-lng. E. G. Friedrichs, FFG Berlin und DVL (Flugerprobung)
Ing. L. Schmidt, FFG Berlin (Flugerprobung)
Eingeflogen durch Haupt-Ing. H.W. Lerche, Rechlin
Flugkapitän Karl Bauer, Messerschmitt
Flugkapitän Heini Dittmar, Messerschmitt
Flugkapitän Wendel, Messerschmitt
Dipl.-Ing. Kracht, DFS-Ainring
cand. Ing. Model, DFS-Ainring
Dipl.-Ing. Zacher, DFS-Ainring
Dipl.-lng. G. Ziegler, DFS-Hörsching
Stabs-Ing. Beauvais, Rechlin E2
Haupt-Ing. Strobl, Rechlin E2
Oblt. Brüning, Rechlin E2
Dipl. Ing Melhorn
Flugkapitän Hans Sander
Flight Capt. Wendel
Flugkapitän Gerhard Caroli (Tyrolean Italian ?)
FBM Böttcher
FBM Scheibe
Lt. Colonel Knemeyer
Flugkapitän Nebel
Colonel Barsewich
Karl Patin
Oberstleutnant Knemeyer
General Jeschonnek (administrative director)
Flugkapitän Matthias (killed test flying aircraft for Soviets in captivity April 1946)
Flugkapitän Erich Warsitz
Flugkapitän Quenzler (Dornier test pilot)

It may also be worth tracking down the relatives of these people some of whom may have settled in the United States under Project Paperclip:

(Lippisch design team Department "L" at Messerschmitt which evolved into the Aeronautic Research Institute in Vienna. The Lippisch design team were recruited by the OSS to work for the US Government after the war under operation Paperclip):

Dr Alexander Lippisch
Dipl. Ing Rudolf Rentel (Lippish design team)
Dr. Hermann Wurster (Lippish design team)
Dipl.-Ing. Josef Hubert (Lippish design team)
Hendrick (Lippish design team)

(Heinkel Rebstock team at Marienehe):
Walter Künzel - project leader/engine installation
A. Jensen - aerodynamics/flight mechanics
H. Bosch - Loading and stress analysis
H. Regner - detail design

(Me-264 design team):
Wolfgang Degel (Me-264 Amerika bomber design team)
Paul Konrad (Me-264 Amerika bomber design team)
Waldemar Voigt (Me-264 Amerika bomber design team)

Prof. Dr. -Ing. Karl Leist
Siegfried Günter of the Junkers Design Bureau in Vienna
Junkers Engineers Eichner and Hohbach (who joined US postwar Operation Overcast/Paperclip)
Engineer Reiniger of the Heinkel company in Vienna
Walter Blume, Arado's Chief Designer Dipl.-lng.
Professor Claudius Chief designer Dornier (sons still design aircraft)
Wilhelm van Nes Designer
Dr. Eugen Sänger (Amerika bomber project)
Mathematician Irene Bredt (Amerika bomber project)
Reimar and Walter Horten (submitted Ho-VIII-B Amerika bomber proposal)
Junkers design engineer Dipl Ing. Ernst Ziedel
Dip. Ing. Richard Vogt.
Arthur Sack
Engineer Heinz Sombold
Engineer Nauber
Dipl. Ing. Albert Kalkert
Dr. Ing. Hünerjäger
Doctor Ulrich Hüter
Dipl. Ing E. Kösel (Focke Wulf)

(Operation PAPERCLIP personnel):

Colonel Donald L Putt, US Army Air Corps, Air Documents Division, Intelligence (T-2),Hq. ATSC, Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio. Maj. D. R. Estman, Jr.Ames, Langley Memorial Aero Lab., Langley Field, Va.
Dr. Von Karman, 1st AAF Scientific Advisory Group, Ch/AS, Hq AAF, Washington 25, D.C.
J. H. Alberti, 1st Chief, Naval Intelligence, OP-23 7-2, Rm. 4524, Navy Bldg., Washington, D.C.
Maj. Towle, 2nd AC/AS-2, AFBAI-1L Maj. Towle
Major Smiley, 2 TSNNT
Dr. Robert Patek, Intelligence (T-2), Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
Lt. Col. Petersen, Intelligence (T-2), Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio

I also read elsewhere in the same book but cannot recall which page that Japan wished to place the Ju-390 aircraft into production, but plans for the aircraft arrived by U-boat too late. The last such U-boats to arrive were U-219 and U-195 in November 1944 at Djakarta.

Many people suggest that the Ju-390 never flew to New York because FAG.5 had no records of such a flight. Several flights appear not have been flown by FAG.5 at all, but rather by Rechlin test pilots.

One of those who debunk the manchuria flights is Peter Willicks for whom one should maintain the profoundest of respect as a researcher, but there are limitations to research. Either when the documents don't exist or one is looking in the wrong place. Peter had this to say on another forum:

The FAGr.5 history was written by me - that's my hobby: chronological unit histories of all Luftwaffe, JAAF, JNAF and Soviet VVS air units during WWII. My material is nearly all from primary archival resources. I spent nearly 25 years and several hundred thousand dollars in expenses on long stays at the archives in Freiburg, Washington and at Maxwell AFB collecting the data. But these are operational histories and therefore contain very little in the way of technical information. So I would have to answer your question with a "NO" - for your interests and purposes, you would not find anything there that adds to what is in Kössler and Ott.

The real difficulty trying to prove these flights didn't happen because they were not recorded in operational unit histories is the equally unproven presumption that such flights were even flown by operational units, or in the case of KG200, even a unit that kept operational records ?

KG200's commanding officer Walter Bambauch wrote his memoirs after the war. Not once in his book did he mention KG200. There is a very real conspiracy of silence by these KG200 guys. It is oversimplistic to say well because there are no documents or witnesses that these flights never occured.

Lack of proof does not imply proof of lack...

The reason why there is so little documentary information about Luftwaffe history is that Luftwaffe records were deliberately destroyed in Austria in April 1945. There was deliberate intent to conceal the history of the Luftwaffe. The memories of surviving personnel may be the only evidence which we will ever get.

If you need a source for this claim his name is Larry deZeng

http://www.lwag.org/reference/fla001.pdf

My question is are there archived Japanese records of this flight, or can someone with contacts in Germany identify a name or a date please ?

[brustcan]

I read from a website about KG200 that 3 Junkers Ju-290 made round trips to Manchuria in the far east. What is the puporse of such a far flight? anyone had anything more about this operation?

In the spring of 1944 the Junker 290 A-5s (11 examples) were delivered
to a new third STAFFEL 4/FAGr5. This UNIT never had more than 20 aircraft, which made it difficult to perform all the tasks assigned to it. "THREE of its aircraft" were withdrawn, and sent to Finsterwalde for special transportation duties. They were stripped of armour and armament and fitted with extra fuel tanks. They then made the trip to Manchuria with
special cargo for the Japanese and returning with strategic materials
that were in short supply in Germany. These aircraft stayed with KG 200.
source: Warplanes of the Luftwaffe. Thanks brustcan

[brustcan]

Dave, of course you have the references to back it up correct ? There are no reprots of FAGr 5 making the trip towards New York

Erich, Only two Junker 390's were produced. The Ju 390 V-1 flew for
the first time on October 20, 1943. In April 1944, the production plan was prepared for the V-2 to V-7 and twenty aircraft. This was all cancelled in
June of 1944. Only the V-2(RC+DA) was completed and transferred to Rechlin-Larz on February 3, 1945. source The Luftwaffe Album. In the
Encyclopedia of German Military Aircraft, it states that one of the Ju-390's
did a 32 test flight to within 12 miles of the coast of the United States
near New York. The aircraft had to be th V-1(GH+UK), with "test pilots"
not belonging to any unit. thanks brustcan

[Erich]

there is no mention from the Freiburg Archiv's covering existing FAGr 5 resources and the author and expert on the Ju 290 and 390 plus unit histories, Dipl.-Ing. Karl Kössler also make's absolutely no mention of FAGr 5's invovement with Oreintal flights or the bogus flight towards the states in his unsurpassed work on the Ju 90/290/390. FAGr 5's prime directive was to offer assistance to the U-boat arm, dropping homing buoys, performing shipping attacks and Recon flights, some of incredible distance over the northern waters.

As I have previously said on this site and others, the living German contingent of FAGr 5 are writing "their" history of FAGr 5, so let's leave it at that. Where William Green came up with this New York flight notion is beyond me but he sure did not access the proper German sources. Yes I have also had lenghty conversation's in the past with researcher Peter Willicks and have his FAGr 5 history.

_____________________________________________________________

cheers und biers !

Erich

[Erich]

another thing to think about, 4./FAGr 5 in it's two month history, disbanded in July of 44 :

according to the German Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for this staffel the unit never possesed the Ju 290 only He 111H-6's, Ju 188F-1's, Ju 88A-4 and Do 217E's and by the way very few of any of these particular a/c.

v/r

E ~ 8)

[Simon Gunson]

Erich wrote:

As I have previously said on this site and others, the living German contingent of FAGr 5 are writing "their" history of FAGr 5, so let's leave it at that.

With respect Erich the topic of this post is Junkers Ju-290 to Manchuria 1944...

Not ...FAG.5 flights to Manchuria 1944

Unless you are not reading what people are posting please note that it is no longer a topic in dispute that FAG.5 had nothing to do with flights to Manchuria. The debate has shifted past the point which you are trying to make so please don't try to arbitrarily silence further threads.

It has already been pointed out that the three Ju-290 A-5 aircraft werk no 10182, 10183 & 10184 were transferred to I/KG200 in April 1944 and that the claims refer to their alleged flights to Manchuria after FAG.5 service.

If one visits Hugo Junker's webpage and the production list for Ju-290 A-5
it is noted there

http://www.junkers.de.vu/

Ju290A5 as A4 for naval operations, 11 built, 3 aircraft were later transfered to Lufthansa

I have learned that a fourth Ju-290 aircraft was transferred to I/KG200 and then converted back to a "civilian" aircraft on Lufthansa's fleet. This aircraft is the one which ended up in Spain.

Ju-290 A-5 werk no 110178 served with FAGr.5 (fernaufklaringsgruppe) with serial KR+LI from Feb 1944 until 4th April 1944. It then became 9V+DK with I/KG200 from 4th April 1944.

110178 was withdrawn and rebuilt at Templehoff into a civil aircraft in Sept 1944 with DLH serial D-AITR "Bayeren" and completed October 1944. Flugkapitan Paul Sluzalek flew this aircraft from Prauge to Barcelona on 26 April 1945. It may have carried SS Lt Gen Hans Kammler and SS Col Adolf Eichmann as some of it's passengers.

There is therefore a connection between Lufthansa and KG200 operations with Lufthansa. We are told for example that the japanese were very sensitive about Luftwaffe overflights of Soviet territory.

What if... these flights to Manchuria were flown in civil guise as a non scheduled airline operation by Lufthansa with KG200 crews ?

That would mean then that scholars who have poured years of effort and their hearts into Luftwaffe archives may simply have been looking in the wrong places.

Brustcan wrote:

Only the V-2(RC+DA) was completed and transferred to Rechlin-Larz on February 3, 1945. source The Luftwaffe Album.

this should be of interest then:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... 20Ju%20390

[Erich]

Simon I have no problem with your statements although it is still being pulled up that FAGr 5 flew these missions in some way also the codes you mention of KG 200 gruppe as 9V would be for FAGr 5 before the transfer of a/c although I se nothing in the Freiburg archiv's of transfer of FAGr 5 a/c to KG 200. wish this could be settled with the German unit history but we will have to wait

[Simon Gunson]

Ta for your answer Erich

I appreciate being corrected about the 9V serial. I make my share of mistakes and can't afford to hop a plane to visit the Freiburg archives.
Incidentally I have read a claim that Freiburg was bombed during the war but that does not seem plausible as the place seems undisturbed during the war ?

It is useful to thrash this issue out to get at the truth. I know more since joining this thread than I did when i started simply because it forced me to find sources. Cheers