German artillery differences??

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Carl Schwamberger
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#16

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 30 Jan 2008, 17:51

That clarifys things. As you know range drums vanished from the guns long ago & my training left that out. The next question concerns compensating for the vertical interval between the gun & target. I assume the observer was responsible for providing this variable to the battery. Would he have also computed the correction, or was this in the hands of the battery leaders?

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Ralph Lovett
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#17

Post by Ralph Lovett » 30 Jan 2008, 21:25

Carl

Unlike US Artillery, the battery commander is the forward observer in the German, USSR-type and British systems. The Battery XO is back with the aiming circle with the gun line.

Also, remember the Range Drum is still used on Former-USSR and former-Yugoslav Artillery Systems.

I am of the opinion that the Battery CMDer/Forward Observer does the step of adding in the Angle of Sight (Sight Elevation) but I will have to check back with my notes.

Ralph Lovett


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#18

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 31 Jan 2008, 06:20

I'll await your answer. You are refering to WWI practices in these answers, correct?

Have you read 'Furer' by Werner Adamcyzk, or 'Soldat' by Sigfried Knappe? Both in the Wehrmachht artillery in WWII. Tucked into their text are some usefull remarks about the roles of the battery officers and NCOs of that era.

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Ralph Lovett
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#19

Post by Ralph Lovett » 04 Feb 2008, 01:04

Carl

I don't have complete answers on everything yet but this is what I have: Looking over the German Army text "Training for the Cannonier" on the 10,5cm lFH 16 in the Inter-War Period, the Battery Commander is with the Forward Observer Element and the Battery XO serves as the ranking officer with the firing battery. This appears to be the same as the 1936 regulations. It is clear that an NCO works the Range Drum but I can not find in the break down of duties describing who does the work of figuring angle of sight. Surly, this would have to be the XO or the BC.

To answer you question about what time period, the basic statements I made in the past postings are true 1893-1945 in German Foot & Field Artillery service as well as British Artillery service.

Of course, currently (and at least since the 1950s) in US service, the battery commander is found back on the gun line and lieutenants are the ranking officers with the FIST or (Forward Observer Teams) and Warrants leading the counter-battery radar teams.

Also, along the way I came up with some interesting footage. Click "1938" on:

http://www.lovettartillery.com/German%2 ... pment.html

Hope this helps----------Ralph Lovett

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#20

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 04 Feb 2008, 14:15

Ralph...the video of the German battery emplacement was interesting. Amoung other things I noticed the telephone wire for comm to the observation post. Also noticed the battery was a bit less dispersed than was our habit.

Does your book indicate if the battery officer had a set of equipment for finding the range/direction and other parts of the firing solution? I assume this was the case but it would be usefull to have this confirmed. More interesting would be if the battery officer used this equipment very often in the battery position.

Thanks again

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#21

Post by Ralph Lovett » 06 Feb 2008, 03:05

Carl,

According to the Inter-War Period manual for 10,5cm lFH 16 Batteries Service Training in the German Army, A Training Manual for the Cannonier, a map spot, pace count or a tape measurer can be used to gain the distance between the firing battery and the FO.

In addition, I believe, the field phone wire length could have also served to gain this figure. With the distance of this ray of the triangle known, an estimate of the Observer to Target Line (OT Line) distance can be made by the Forward Observer. With these two distances then known and dircetions provieded by a compass (FO) and aiming circle (gun line) plotting is possible.

The Plotter seen below is the one in WW2 Era service but the same system was also in use in WW1 for both the British and Germans. The FO gains his directions from a compass also using the Battery Commander (BC) Scope. The Gun line uses the magnetic compass portion of their aiming circle or a distant aiming point method.

On the Plotter, one circle and arm represents the OT line and the other circle and arm represents the Gun to Target Line. Where the to interesect is the target.

Ralph Lovett
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Ger_WK2_Plotter3.JPG
Ger_WK2_Plotter3.JPG (156.45 KiB) Viewed 1917 times

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#22

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Feb 2008, 07:14

What other methods or equipment were used to obtain the firing solution? This was not the only way to find the direction and range, correct?

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Ralph Lovett
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#23

Post by Ralph Lovett » 08 Feb 2008, 17:55

Carl,

These are the main instruments used. The optical range finders were also in use but as with us today they are not necessary to get an accurate range. A trained observer can estimate this easily.

Ralph Lovett

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#24

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Feb 2008, 05:31

Ok. It is clear enough how that is used by the observer to find the range direction for his battery for the target he can see. A accurate known distance from the observer to the battery, and direction is required. As you wrote these can be obtained by either hasty, or more formal survey methods.

But. my question about other equipment for 'fire direction' still stands. Do you have any examples of protractors for use on a map, other calculating devices like slide rules, written firing tables, or other devices?

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#25

Post by Ralph Lovett » 09 Feb 2008, 06:31

Carl,

There are a number of "Fire Directional" type instruments used directly on the map within the German WW2 Era system of Fire Control.

I have attached photo copies of a German WW2 Era 10,5cm lFK 18 "Artillery Computer". These were made for each specific gun/howitzer type. This is basically an RDP with an adjustment for putting the Meteorological Corrections directly on the scale. This is for correcting for variations in "air density, weight of projectile, muzzle velocity and powder temperature". (TM E9-325A German 105-mm Howitzer Material)

I have also scanned in a photocopy of a German WW2 Era Artillery Protractor. (Artilleristen-Fibel fur Artillerie-1936) I believe, earlier in the WW1 Era, the compass and the straight edge on its side were used in place of a protractor for both Foot and Field Artillery.

Around March I expect to have a number of additions on my web site including information on these subjects.

Ralph Lovett
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10,5cm_RDP_MET_Device.jpg
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PROT_GERMAN_WW2.jpg
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B.W.E. f. s. F.H. 18

#26

Post by cannonmn » 10 Feb 2008, 05:21

Maybe you are already quite familiar with these, but I picked this up about 10 years ago and haven't looked at it today. I'm curious to know what "B.W.E. stands for. Would this device replace the mechanical computer shown in previous post? This seems to have a large number of parameters laid out on the many different plastic cards. The cards with the vertical slits in them are laid in the slot with black and red numbers on it, then it can be slid horiontally back and forth. You read numbers from curves on another card underneath. I assume you just have to be careful to have the card on the bottom and the slit card with the same zones installed simultaneiously.

One of the cards with text only seems to contain the instructions. My German is poor, maybe someone can make sense out of this thing.

Click on the thumbnails to bring up larger images.

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Carl Schwamberger
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#27

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Feb 2008, 07:54

No I've not seen those before. Where did you find them?

A quick looks suggests most are supplements to the 'mechanical computer shown in previous post'. One appears to be for finding correction data for some variable or other & I suspect several others are similar. We had all that in a book (Tabular Firing Table) which had several hundred dense pages of charts for correcting for wind velocity, barometric pressure, earth rotation, projectile weight ect... We also had some specialized slide rules and quick refrence charts for speedier calculation.

The correction charts would be refered to after the basic computation is taken from the mechanical device, or the firing table in our case.

Anyone who can provide a detailed translation of the instructions on those devices will be my friend for life :D And, cannonmn, please dont let me know where you live. I'm liable to lose all sense and appear on your door step at 2:00 am demanding a look at those charts. I wonder if the museum at Ft Sill has a similar collection?

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#28

Post by cannonmn » 10 Feb 2008, 09:05

Where did you find them?
The items were in that slim black box, purchase at a gun show in Pennsylvania. I've always been attracted to such items.

I once owned a computer exactly as pictured above by Mr. Lovett. There was no nomenclature on it whatever, save a small tag on it engraved "Dr. Pfannke, Berlin" with such a manufactured appearance as to indicate it had either been designed or manufactured by him. It was packed into a neat plywood box with one handle and a couple of rotating fastners for closure. The computer part visible in Mr. Lovett's "tech manual" picture above lifted out of the box, and was then joined to several "arms" that apparently stetched out over a map for plotting purposes. As I recall one arm was attached to the left end of the piece shown, and the other to the periphery of a rotating drum built into the upper right corner of the device.

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#29

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Feb 2008, 14:06

My Greed grows. Now all I desire is for folks with British, French, Soviet & Japanese artilery computational equipment to display it here. :D

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#30

Post by gambadier » 11 Feb 2008, 14:26

Without a physical examination I can't be sure, but the photos indicate the sights are a bit more complicated that suggested.

First I'd be surprised if they did not have independent line of sight, this means the dial sight mount can be made vertical without laying the barrel.

Next I think they are oscillating, this means they can be cross levelled, the pair of levelling bubbles at right angles is a clue.

The same photo shows what I suspect is a painted over angle of sight scale. Keeping AoS separate from TE has good gunnery reasons (speed and simplicity).

It's not quite clear to me what units of measure are on the range drums, is it angular or thousands of metres? I note a reference in an early post to elevations 0 - 45 degrees, I suggest this isn't degrees but grads (50 = 45 degs), this is reasonable for a gun, few WW1 guns bothered to go up to 45 degs, many were a lot less.

The 'plotter' is a fancy version of the UK pre-1914 one, there's no evidence that it was greatly (or even any) used by them in WW2. Basically it solves the triangle OTB, which is a bit limiting if you want to use 2 or more btys! It's really only useful if you are in unmapped terrain but also imposes tactical contrainsts on deployment. I've got vague memories of pictures of German observers with optical range finders, positioned where they could see both target and guns gave two sides of the triangle, but the tactical contraints are obvious which is why UK gave it away pretty quickly in 1914.

It's also good to see continuity, the distinctively shaped protractor, albeit with different makings was in use in the Bundeswehr in the 1980s (and probably still), I have one purchased in the local stationary shop in Munsterlager, then home of the Panzertrupperschule and Pz Lehr Bde 9.

Incidentally in WW2 UK gunners only had the option of producing firing data at the OP if it was a troop target. And even then corrections for non-standard conditions were made at the troop or bty CP with the guns. I'd be a bit surprised if the Germans expected their observers to do this, requiring observers to act as both observers (tactical fire control) and CP/FDC (technical fire control) puts serious practical limitations on the capabilities of your artillery.

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