USSR and Geneva Convention

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Oleg Grigoryev
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USSR and Geneva Convention

#1

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 29 Aug 2003, 00:32

Declaration.
Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, by this note declares, that Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is accepting the convention about improving life of the prisoners of war, wounded, and sick in the acting armies, signed in Geneva on June 27th 1929. In order to verify it Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, who has all the necessary mandates and powers, signed this declaration of accepting. In accordance with a decision of Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from May 12th 1930, this acceptance is final and does not need any further ratifications.
Done in Moscow on August 25 1930.
Signed : Litvinov.
Location of the document CAGOR SSSR fond 9501 opis 5 ed hran 7 list 22.

Consequently the stories that USSR never signed the Geneva convention now can be safely disregarded as myth

Dan
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#2

Post by Dan » 29 Aug 2003, 01:00

If true this is quite a bombshell. What do the more learned members say?


michael mills
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#3

Post by michael mills » 29 Aug 2003, 02:27

Was this declaration ever sent to the League of Nations?

All histories that I have ever read agree that the USSR had not ratified the Geneva Convention as of 22 June 1941, and therefore had to hurriedly make unofficial arrangements with neutral states relating to the treatment of POWs. That suggests that Soviet ratification was not publicly known, or on record anywhere.

If the declaration signed by Litvinov was kept hidden in the archives (I presume that by CAGOR Oleg is referring to TsGAOR = Tsentral'nyi Gosudarstvennyi Arkhiv Oktiabr'skoi Revoliutsii = Central State Archive of the October Revolution) and has only now been discovered, that suggests that a decision to adhere to the Geneva Convention was initially made but then rescinded, and the initial ratification never communicated to the League of Nations.

If the USSR had really wanted to adhere to the Geneva Convention, then surely it would have made its ratification public, so that there could be no doubt on the issue. And one might well ask the question why the Soviet Government did not proclaim during the war itself that it had ratified the Convention in 1930, and why it had to make hurried unofficial arrangements with Sweden. The actions of the Soviet Government after the German invasion do not indicate any knowledge of such ratification.

Another example. When the Soviet Union went to war with Finland in November 1939, did it openly acknowledge that it had ratified the Geneva Convention in 1930 and would abide by its provisions?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#4

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 29 Aug 2003, 02:42

All histories that I have ever read agree that the USSR had not ratified the Geneva Convention as of 22 June 1941, and therefore had to hurriedly make unofficial arrangements with neutral states relating to the treatment of POWs. That suggests that Soviet ratification was not publicly known, or on record anywhere.
it says in the document mr Mills – no further ratification is needed.
If the declaration signed by Litvinov was kept hidden in the archives (I presume that by CAGOR Oleg is referring to TsGAOR = Tsentral'nyi Gosudarstvennyi Arkhiv Oktiabr'skoi Revoliutsii = Central State Archive of the October Revolution) and has only now been discovered, that suggests that a decision to adhere to the Geneva Convention was initially made but then rescinded, and the initial ratification never communicated to the League of Nations.
Where else they were suppose to keep old documents? The fact that USSR ratified Geneva convention was commonplace knowledge back in USSR. Why this myth persisted here – I don’t really know.
If the USSR had really wanted to adhere to the Geneva Convention, then surely it would have made its ratification public, so that there could be no doubt on the issue. And one might well ask the question why the Soviet Government did not proclaim during the war itself that it had ratified the Convention in 1930, and why it had to make hurried unofficial arrangements with Sweden. The actions of the Soviet Government after the German invasion do not indicate any knowledge of such ratification.
what actions that would be mr. Mills? Soviet regulations on treatment of POWs were in agreement with the Geneva.
Another example. When the Soviet Union went to war with Finland in November 1939, did it openly acknowledge that it had ratified the Geneva Convention in 1930 and would abide by its provisions?
why would it do it again 9 years later?

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#5

Post by Dan » 29 Aug 2003, 03:29

Important post alert.

j.north
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conventions

#6

Post by j.north » 29 Aug 2003, 11:58

It's an interesting point but when it comes to Soviet pows in German hands it is more important to note that Germany was obliged, by Article 82 of the said convention, to treat pows according to humanitarian rules whether they came from states who ratified the convention or not.

As Germany made quite clear when it came to Soviet pows, the Third Reich was not going to respect any international law. Neither the Hague Rules, the Geneva Convention or the German Military Penal Code nor international customary law. Canaris, amongst others, protested, but was slapped down. The German military were obliged to follow such laws but felt themselves above the law.

So that made them criminals and the mass murder of Soviet pows was a criminal act quite contrary to the laws of war Germany professed to follow (and indeed did follow in regard to other pows).

An argument as to whether the Soviet Union ratified or did not ratify the convention makes no difference when it comes to the treatment of Soviet pows in German hands; it is of interest when we look at Germans in Soviet hands.

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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#7

Post by Wulpe » 29 Aug 2003, 16:35

oleg wrote:Consequently the stories that USSR never signed the Geneva convention now can be safely disregarded as myth
Wrong conclusion. This declaration would have need to be published and sent to the swiss government to be legal. I can also donate you my house, but lock the signed treaty in my safe and tell nobody ... do you own my house now ?

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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#8

Post by wildboar » 30 Aug 2003, 18:21

oleg wrote:
Declaration.
Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, by this note declares, that Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is accepting the convention about improving life of the prisoners of war, wounded, and sick in the acting armies, signed in Geneva on June 27th 1929. In order to verify it Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, who has all the necessary mandates and powers, signed this declaration of accepting. In accordance with a decision of Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from May 12th 1930, this acceptance is final and does not need any further ratifications.
Done in Moscow on August 25 1930.
Signed : Litvinov.
Location of the document CAGOR SSSR fond 9501 opis 5 ed hran 7 list 22.

Consequently the stories that USSR never signed the Geneva convention now can be safely disregarded as myth
USSR never publicly stated that it accepted Geneva Conventions?
USSR claimed that it was signatory to earlier Hague conventions which had become redundant on advent of Geneva Conventions.
A Sudden appearance of any piece of paper does'nt absolves USSR's failure to sign Geneva convention and Subsequent crime commited against POW by Stalin & Gang

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#9

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 30 Aug 2003, 18:49

wildboar wrote:
oleg wrote:
Declaration.
Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, by this note declares, that Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is accepting the convention about improving life of the prisoners of war, wounded, and sick in the acting armies, signed in Geneva on June 27th 1929. In order to verify it Peoples Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, who has all the necessary mandates and powers, signed this declaration of accepting. In accordance with a decision of Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from May 12th 1930, this acceptance is final and does not need any further ratifications.
Done in Moscow on August 25 1930.
Signed : Litvinov.
Location of the document CAGOR SSSR fond 9501 opis 5 ed hran 7 list 22.

Consequently the stories that USSR never signed the Geneva convention now can be safely disregarded as myth
USSR never publicly stated that it accepted Geneva Conventions?
USSR claimed that it was signatory to earlier Hague conventions which had become redundant on advent of Geneva Conventions.
A Sudden appearance of any piece of paper does'nt absolves USSR's failure to sign Geneva convention and Subsequent crime commited against POW by Stalin & Gang
This "piece of paper" is "signing Geneva convention" - anyway what crimes are you refering to specifically?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#10

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 30 Aug 2003, 18:50

Wulpe wrote:
oleg wrote:Consequently the stories that USSR never signed the Geneva convention now can be safely disregarded as myth
Wrong conclusion. This declaration would have need to be published and sent to the swiss government to be legal. I can also donate you my house, but lock the signed treaty in my safe and tell nobody ... do you own my house now ?
bad anology -besides it was published.

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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#11

Post by PolAntek » 30 Aug 2003, 21:39

oleg wrote: 1) Soviet regulations on treatment of POWs were in agreement with the Geneva.

2) ... - anyway what crimes are you refering to specifically?
Although the question is directed at wildboar, I'll throw in my two bits:

The Katyn Forest Massacre (you had to know that this one would rear its ugly head yet again) is a good example of "Stalin & gang's" adherence to their interpretation of the Geneva Convention :roll:

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#12

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 30 Aug 2003, 22:17

PolAntek wrote:
oleg wrote: 1) Soviet regulations on treatment of POWs were in agreement with the Geneva.

2) ... - anyway what crimes are you refering to specifically?
Although the question is directed at wildboar, I'll throw in my two bits:

The Katyn Forest Massacre (you had to know that this one would rear its ugly head yet again) is a good example of "Stalin & gang's" adherence to their interpretation of the Geneva Convention :roll:
No convention prohibits charging and prosecuting POWs for something that they did in captivity, which happened to be the case with Katyn. Whoever was executed were convicted under article 58 of criminal code. That said the convictions was issued with gross violation of Soviet criminal code. So, to answer your question – Geneva was not violated in this although the Soviet law was.

P.S. I actually have exact instructions issued to the Red Army in 1939 and in NKVD on how to deal with captured Polish personnel, so if you are interested I can translate them, and you for yourself can check if these instructions were in agreement with the Geneva

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#13

Post by alsaco » 30 Aug 2003, 22:32

We should not mix the declaration of adhesion and the way this adhesion was practised.

The paper found by oleg says a decision to accept the convention was passed by the responsible autorithies in 1930
The only problem can be were the forms of publicity and deposit correctly executed. And did the SDN and Swiss government receive and file the participation of the USSR to the Convention

Second problem will then be why did this acceptance remain secret

The fact that a country having signed, any country, did not respect his signature is a different matter.

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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#14

Post by PolAntek » 31 Aug 2003, 01:02

oleg wrote:No convention prohibits charging and prosecuting POWs for something that they did in captivity, which happened to be the case with Katyn.
There's always a convenient way out, isn't there? I maintain that the Geneva Convention was violated with regards to the fate of the Poles. The twisting of the truth and fabrication of lies to somehow make the captured Poles appear in violation of some Soviet regulation - and hence ‘justify’ their cold blooded murder – doesn’t absolve the Soviets of the guilt of perpetrating a massive war crime. Plain and simple – the elimination of these men was part of Stalin’s master plan destroy Poland’s elite and effectively be-head the Polish nation. Are you denying this?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: USSR and Geneva Convention

#15

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 31 Aug 2003, 09:07

PolAntek wrote:
oleg wrote:No convention prohibits charging and prosecuting POWs for something that they did in captivity, which happened to be the case with Katyn.
There's always a convenient way out, isn't there? I maintain that the Geneva Convention was violated with regards to the fate of the Poles. The twisting of the truth and fabrication of lies to somehow make the captured Poles appear in violation of some Soviet regulation - and hence ‘justify’ their cold blooded murder – doesn’t absolve the Soviets of the guilt of perpetrating a massive war crime. Plain and simple – the elimination of these men was part of Stalin’s master plan destroy Poland’s elite and effectively be-head the Polish nation. Are you denying this?
There's always a convenient way out, isn't there?
what convenient way?
I maintain that the Geneva Convention was violated with regards to the fate of the Poles.
– I don’t know –good for you?
The twisting of the truth and fabrication of lies to somehow make the captured Poles appear in violation of some Soviet regulation - and hence ‘justify’ their cold blooded murder – doesn’t absolve the Soviets of the guilt of perpetrating a massive war crime. Plain and simple – the elimination of these men was part of Stalin’s master plan destroy Poland’s elite and effectively be-head the Polish nation.
What twisting of truth? They were convicted under article 58 –that is a fact – nothing twisted here. That the due process was grossly violated is also a fact. That Geneva convention or any other convention does not forbid prosecuting of prisoners for criminal acts committed while in captivity is also a fact.
Are you denying this?
well considering the fact that executions were selective and as early as November 2 1940 Soviet Government was toying with an idea of creating Polish division within RKKA under the command of Polish officers, don’t exactly sit well with this thesis of yours.

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