soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

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wildboar
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soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#1

Post by wildboar » 02 Jun 2002, 13:54

Roberto,
as stated by me in oleg's thread regarding the decision of czech parliament i opening the topic again.
here again i state that expulsion of germans from was made possible by presence of soviet forces in eastern europe
the post war government of poland and czechoslovakia were weak and there daily existence survived on soviet forces even normal police duty were performed by soviet forces.
expulsion of germans a decision of polish and czech government was carried and implemented by soviet forces with full knowledge of stalin and beria, here i am quoting some evidence for the same here-
Robert Murphy, the political advisor of General Eisenhower, and later the political advisor of Clay during the occupation in Germany, was one of the first official voices in the American government that opposed the Expulsion, and to criticize the manner in which the Expulsion was being carried out.

In a memorandum to the State Department of 12 October 1945 he presented this moral dilemma very eloquently, and I quote in part:

"Knowledge that they are the victims of a harsh political decision carried out with the utmost ruthlessness and disregard for the humanities does not cushion the effect. The mind reverts to other mass deportations which horrified the world and brought upon the Nazis the odium which they so deserved. Those mass deportations engineered by the Nazis provided part of the moral basis on which we waged war and which gave strength to our cause. Now the situation is reversed. We find ourselves in the invidious position of being partners in this German enterprise and as partners inevitably sharing the responsiblity."

As a result of this and all the memoranda of Murphy, the American government repeatedly protested at Warsaw and at Prague and tried to get some cooperation from the Czechoslovak government and from the Polish government.

But unfortunately the Soviet occupation forces in those areas encouraged both the Polish and the Czechoslovak governments in the Expulsion, so there was no way for the U.S. to effectively stop it.
source-

http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

so the expulsion of germans from eastern europe was a crime commited by former soviet union and responsibility of soviet union,stalin and beria is more than any other individual or government from eastern europe
Last edited by wildboar on 22 Jun 2002, 17:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#2

Post by Roberto » 02 Jun 2002, 23:40

wildboar wrote:Roberto,
as stated by me in oleg's thread regarding the decision of czech parliament i opening the topic again.
here again i state that expulsion of germans from was made possible by presence of soviet forces in eastern europe
the post war government of poland and czechoslovakia were weak and there daily existence survived on soviet forces even normal police duty were performed by soviet forces.
expulsion of germans a decision of polish and czech government was carried and implemented by soviet forces with full knowledge of stalin and beria, here i am quoting some evidence for the same here-
Robert Murphy, the political advisor of General Eisenhower, and later the political advisor of Clay during the occupation in Germany, was one of the first official voices in the American government that opposed the Expulsion, and to criticize the manner in which the Expulsion was being carried out.

In a memorandum to the State Department of 12 October 1945 he presented this moral dilemma very eloquently, and I quote in part:

"Knowledge that they are the victims of a harsh political decision carried out with the utmost ruthlessness and disregard for the humanities does not cushion the effect. The mind reverts to other mass deportations which horrified the world and brought upon the Nazis the odium which they so deserved. Those mass deportations engineered by the Nazis provided part of the moral basis on which we waged war and which gave strength to our cause. Now the situation is reversed. We find ourselves in the invidious position of being partners in this German enterprise and as partners inevitably sharing the responsiblity."

As a result of this and all the memoranda of Murphy, the American government repeatedly protested at Warsaw and at Prague and tried to get some cooperation from the Czechoslovak government and from the Polish government.

But unfortunately the Soviet occupation forces in those areas encouraged both the Polish and the Czechoslovak governments in the Expulsion, so there was no way for the U.S. to effectively stop it.
source-

http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

so the expulsion of germans from eastern europe was a crime commited by former soviet union and responsibility of soviet union,stalin and beria is more than any other individual or government from eastern europe
No. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia was a crime that Soviet forces encouraged rather than trying to prevent. That doesn't make it a Soviet crime. It's still a crime of the Polish and Czech governments, with some Soviet participation. This, in fact, is what becomes apparent from the highlighted passage of your quote, if you read it correctly:
But unfortunately the Soviet occupation forces in those areas encouraged both the Polish and the Czechoslovak governments in the Expulsion, so there was no way for the U.S. to effectively stop it.
Emphasis is mine.


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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#3

Post by Ovidius » 02 Jun 2002, 23:50

Roberto wrote:No. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia was a crime that Soviet forces encouraged rather than trying to prevent. That doesn't make it a Soviet crime. It's still a crime of the Polish and Czech governments, with some Soviet participation. This, in fact, is what becomes apparent from the highlighted passage of your quote, if you read it correctly
No. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia was a crime that the Communist governments imposed by the Soviet occupant did, under the guise of the Soviet military occupant.

During the period between the fall of 1944 and about the end of 1952, the Romanian government was totally dominated by the Soviets, although until March 6, 1945, the government wasn't officially composed of Leftist politicians.

There is no reason to "Believe" that the Soviets granted any right to take decisions(or to oppose Soviet decisions) to the other Eastern Bloc puppet-governments.

So it's a Soviet crime, with some Polish & Czech flavor, but still under Soviet guise.

To end the disputes, I'll just say it was a Communist crime.

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#4

Post by Roberto » 02 Jun 2002, 23:57

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:No. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia was a crime that Soviet forces encouraged rather than trying to prevent. That doesn't make it a Soviet crime. It's still a crime of the Polish and Czech governments, with some Soviet participation. This, in fact, is what becomes apparent from the highlighted passage of your quote, if you read it correctly
No. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia was a crime that the Communist governments imposed by the Soviet occupant did, under the guise of the Soviet military occupant.

During the period between the fall of 1944 and about the end of 1952, the Romanian government was totally dominated by the Soviets, although until March 6, 1945, the government wasn't officially composed of Leftist politicians.

There is no reason to "Believe" that the Soviets granted any right to take decisions(or to oppose Soviet decisions) to the other Eastern Bloc puppet-governments.

So it's a Soviet crime, with some Polish & Czech flavor, but still under Soviet guise.

To end the disputes, I'll just say it was a Communist crime.

~Ovidius
If I well remember, the Czech government wasn't even Communist when the expulsions took place. They were neither related to any Soviet instructions, but to a law that traced back its origins back to 1938.

I don't have a problem with considering the Polish postwar government a Communist government, on the other hand. But what evidence is there that in expelling ethnic Germans from their territories they were carrying out Soviet instructions?

I'd say the expulsions were more related to i) the atrocities committed by the Nazi occupiers on Polish soil during World War II and ii) the westward shifting of the Polish border by the Soviet government, which annexed Eastern Poland and "indemnified" the Poles with territories that had formerly belonged to Germany and where they undertook to settle homeless nationals from the former Eastern part of the country, at the expense of the ethnic Germans.

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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#5

Post by Ovidius » 03 Jun 2002, 00:08

Roberto wrote:If I well remember, the Czech government wasn't even Communist when the expulsions took place. They were neither related to any Soviet instructions, but to a law that traced back its origins back to 1938.
Neither were the Romanian Governments from August 23, 1944 to March 6, 1945, but they were nevertheless under tight Soviet control.
Roberto wrote:I don't have a problem with considering the Polish postwar government a Communist government, on the other hand. But what evidence is there that in expelling ethnic Germans from their territories they were carrying out Soviet instructions?
None, unless you have full access to Soviet, Czech and Polish archives, and all docs are there undisturbed. Just my word, and you can "Believe" I know a few bits about how things are done in Communism and under foreign military occupation.

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#6

Post by Roberto » 03 Jun 2002, 00:13

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:If I well remember, the Czech government wasn't even Communist when the expulsions took place. They were neither related to any Soviet instructions, but to a law that traced back its origins back to 1938.
Neither were the Romanian Governments from August 23, 1944 to March 6, 1945, but they were nevertheless under tight Soviet control.
Roberto wrote:I don't have a problem with considering the Polish postwar government a Communist government, on the other hand. But what evidence is there that in expelling ethnic Germans from their territories they were carrying out Soviet instructions?
None, unless you have full access to Soviet, Czech and Polish archives, and all docs are there undisturbed. Just my word, and you can "Believe" I know a few bits about how things are done in Communism and under foreign military occupation.

~Ovidius

Source: Ovidius.

Why don't you tell us a little about your personal experiences with the workings of Communism, pal? It might be interesting to many of us.

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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#7

Post by Ovidius » 03 Jun 2002, 00:18

Roberto wrote:Source: Ovidius.

Why don't you tell us a little about your personal experiences with the workings of Communism, pal? It might be interesting to many of us.
Since I was born in 1980, my "personal" experiences are absolutely irrelevant.

However, there were the personal experiences of countless other people in the Communist environment, which are pretty interesting if you can read Romanian(which I pretty much doubt).

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#8

Post by Roberto » 03 Jun 2002, 00:26

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:Source: Ovidius.

Why don't you tell us a little about your personal experiences with the workings of Communism, pal? It might be interesting to many of us.
Since I was born in 1980, my "personal" experiences are absolutely irrelevant.

However, there were the personal experiences of countless other people in the Communist environment, which are pretty interesting if you can read Romanian(which I pretty much doubt).

~Ovidius
Well, I can read Italian, which I'm told is not much different from Romanian.

And I'm sure that my friend Ovidius will be at hand to help me if there's anything I don't understand. :D

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#9

Post by Davey Boy » 03 Jun 2002, 15:14

This is a bit of a strange argument. You're all splitting hairs here, as far as I can see.

The Soviets can definitely be blamed for the expulsions. But then again, so can the Czechs, Poles and, of course, the Nazi goons who started all the trouble in the first place.

Most of the dirty work in Poland was done by Poles. And they didn't do it because they were told do, they were happy to do it. But Soviet troops were also involved in a big way. In fact, didn't Stalin once say to Churchil "you don't have to worry about all those Germans (on the land that is being returned to Poland)", or something close to that? I think he did.

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#10

Post by Ovidius » 03 Jun 2002, 15:38

HETMAN wrote:Most of the dirty work in Poland was done by Poles. And they didn't do it because they were told do, they were happy to do it.
I've heard the same argument about the Einsatzgruppen men. But I agree: obviously the Poles were glad to do it. It's pretty much expectable from them. :mrgreen:
HETMAN wrote:But Soviet troops were also involved in a big way. In fact, didn't Stalin once say to Churchil "you don't have to worry about all those Germans (on the land that is being returned to Poland)", or something close to that? I think he did.
There was no need for "troops" against unarmed people. A Commissar here, another Communist there, in the strong points of the "network of power" they(the Soviets) created(and still exists).

~Ovidius

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#11

Post by Oswald Mosley » 17 Jun 2002, 01:41

Yes, there is a lot of hair splitting. There is clear evidence that the expulsions were encouraged by the Soviets, but carried out by the goverments of Poland and Czechoslovakia. The Western Allies, however, must shoulder at least some of the blame themselves for agreeing to these brutalities in the Carthaginian 'Potsdam Treaty'. Surely the UK and US did not honestly believe that the Germans would be expelled peacefully? So all the Allies bear responsibility.

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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#12

Post by Cantankerous » 17 Aug 2020, 22:09

There is a thread that deals with the same topic:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=856

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Re: soviet forces encouraged the expulsion of germans

#13

Post by wm » 19 Aug 2020, 10:44

Both governments (of Poland and Czechoslovakia) were puppets of Stalin.

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